Black & Red Socks

I’m not at all sure that the ERSJFA South Division, going forward, will offer anything that is particularly attractive to ambitious amateur clubs. It is a competition that is slowly becoming little more than an amateur league itself. If they are indeed ambitious and if they can somehow attain minimum standard facilities then why aim for an insular Junior league which offers nowhere to go in terms of progression when you can just as easily apply to the EoSFL and be in Tier 7/8 of the football pyramid?

This is where I’m a wee bit confused. You’re right in stating that they have a consistency of approach - but if they state that they will react when they feel they are going to be “left behind” does that not mean that they realise they are already in a position from where they can be “left behind”? i.e. the position they are in is not as far advanced as the position they could be in? Ergo, happy to be flat track bullies?

Ach, we’ll just agree to disagree! The points have been made. What I think we can agree on is that Conferences/Regionalisation would be best coming in at Tier 8 with Tier 7 being a First Division. Promotion and relegation possibilities between these Tiers will no doubt be presented as proposals for clubs to choose between should we ever get that far.

It's very far from inconsistency of thinking though, it's merely suggested evolution from where we are to where things might ideally be and making tweaks where tweaks are - perhaps - necessary. Is that not a good thing? You shouldn't continue to do something one way simply because that is always the way you've done it - is that not a criticism of another governing body outwith the Pyramid?!

To be pedantic, a turnover of 7 from 16 is nearer to 40% than it is to 50% For me, refreshing the 'middle' Tier of the EoSFL in this way - should restructuring indeed come to pass to create Tiers 6, 7 & 8 - is, well, refreshing and helps keep interest at the top and bottom of the table and allows for the nine teams that are neither promoted nor relegated to be playing against a wider variety of teams over the seasons should they continue to remain in that middle ground. However, that said, your alternative suggestion of 3 up 3 down and a play-off isn't one I'd personally take issue with. It is, however, for the clubs to decide, although shaping the leagues as Tiers 6, 7 & 8, with regionalisation at Tier 8 if numbers allow, certainly seems the way forward that would offer the most solutions to most of the clubs.

Also agreed. 3 up into the Premier Division and 4 down into two regionalised Second Divisions from a 16 team First Division seems more than manageable and an ideal aim should numbers for such a regionalised Second Division allow. Cross division games, much like the cross conference games this season, would work very well too and give variety where it might be needed. If numbers don't allow for this set-up straight away then 3 up into the Premier Division and 2 down into a single Second Division also allows for good flow between the tiers.

Agreed. This seems an eminently sensible way to approach the necessary restructuring to the EoSFL for season 2020/21 - such restructuring allows for 3up/3 down promotion and relegation between the Premier and First Divisions, a much more satisfactory flow of teams up and down the pyramid than between the Premier Division and the Conferences at the moment. I'm sure that any or all of the rump of clubs currently left in the ERSJFA will be welcomed with open arms but there really is no need to continue to hold back the development of the league structure to encourage it, and if that means the likes of Bathgate, Whitburn, Fauldhouse and Armadale have to battle it out with each other for the promotion spots in the Second Division should they elect to move (and hopefully they do) then so be it - they've brought that upon themselves through their own intransigence and lack of foresight over the last two seasons.

I know I'm being pedantic so apologies, but on those numbers a swing of 23 does it

Wilful misrepresentation by the SJFA and the ERSJFA lead clubs in the east to believe that Tier 6 Pyramid football would be delivered to their 'Super League' clubs. It was never, ever, ever going to happen - as was endlessly pointed out here and in the Juniors forum. But was that all that stood in the way of the rump of the east Juniors moving to the EoSFL? I'm not entirely sure. It would appear, certainly from opinion presented here and elsewhere, that the parochial nature of the remaining clubs - or at least some on their committees - continues, alongside an enmity for those clubs who have already made the move, particularly from clubs in West Lothian it would seem. Will continued embitterment and a refusal to look above the horizon and to the future hamstring these clubs forever and condemn them to nothing more than the glorified amateur leagues that they are currently playing in? The likes of Bathgate Thistle, Fauldhouse United, Whitburn and Armadale Thistle in particular really should have the vision to move, but then again they never had that vision when Tier 6 football was on offer and now, in all likelihood and in all fairness to the present EoSFL clubs, it will be Tier 7 at best but, perhaps more likely, Tier 8 football that is being offered. No ones fault but their own of course. Maybe the likes of Stoneyburn and West Calder United should be showing the way by applying to the EoSFL and reinvigorating interest in their clubs in the process?

I'm betwixt and between as to which of setting up a new WoSFL or seeing sides move to the SoSFL and it being rebranded as the WoSFL is the best way forward. Perhaps the latter might just be the best way if, as Marshmallo says, it is handled similarly to the excellent way the EoSFL handled the influx of ERSJFA clubs. Going forward, this allows for just a west feeder and an east feeder to the LL, probably better than a west, east and south feeder? A season of pain and some lopsided matches in a conference style SoSFL, should numbers permit, might be a price worth paying, although it really is up to the clubs and the relevant leagues.

“It’s all the fault of the EoSFL and the LL. We wanted to move into the house upstairs from the EoSFL and next door to the LL but when they didn’t accept that we wanted to redecorate their living rooms, rip out and replace their kitchens and bathrooms and put new carpets down throughout both their houses we knew they were going to be awkward”.

What you say will indeed come to pass should 16 of the bigger clubs leave the WRSJFA to be part of any newly created WoSFL. However, I think you wrongly attribute glensmad's understanding of all of this. He's been quite clear and consistent in stating his belief that it wouldn't have affected any of the WRSJFA clubs in the way many apparently feared it would if the WRSJFA had taken the opportunity of joining the pyramid en masse at the end of last season when it was made quite clear to the SFA that, at that time, this was a west feeder solution fully supported by the LL and the EoSFL. It has become just as clear that time has now passed due to the (intentional?) procrastination of the SJFA and the WRSJFA.

Not that much better I guess when you look at your posting history and see that you've made nearly 7000 posts on P&B in a little less than eleven years.

Fundamentally we have now reached the point we were always going to reach. The SJFA in its entirety will not be part of the Pyramid. The WRSJFA will not be part of the Pyramid as the SJFA have inextricably linked that possibility to the ERSJFA being part of the Pyramid too and that will not happen for the quite simple reason that the geography of the ERSJFA heavily overlaps that of an already functioning part of the Pyramid in the shape of the EoSFL, not to mention the ERSJFA containing teams who cannot play in an east feeder as they are north of the HL/LL boundary and, ergo, must be in a north feeder. All of the above, all of it, has been pointed out many, many times previously but has been wilfully ignored by too many for way, way too long. We are exactly where the SJFA hierarchy wants to be – the Juniors outwith the Pyramid but able to erroneously blame other parties. The only way forward for ambitious WRSJFA clubs who see their future in the Pyramid and away from the small time, ‘it’s always been’ mentality of too many of those entwined with the SJFA is to communicate with each other, establish common ground and common understanding of the situation and then speak with the LL and the EoSFL for initial help and guidance in setting up a WoSFL. The ambitious south of Tay ERSJFA clubs, as stated often enough before, need only follow a path well traversed already and join the EoSFL. Ambitious north of Tay and NRSJFA clubs need do as their WRSJFA counterparts should and communicate with one another ahead of approaching the HL with a view to setting up a northern feeder to the HL. All of this takes both a degree of effort, thought and understanding on the part of these clubs but it can be done. Waiting for someone else to do it all for them will result in the same outcome as we are looking at today.

This has been the contention on here by many who have felt that the SJFA have way, way overplayed their hand in all of this. There has been an open door for the WRSJFA to walk through - despite what some have incorrectly tried to infer - on route to their entire structure becoming a west feeder to the LL. However, their continuing procrastination, aided and abetted by the SJFA, now seems likely to result in little more than that door being summarily closed. This, of course, means that the WRSJFA are no longer welcome, only their clubs are and only by application to an about to be formed WoSFL - if the latest information to hand is indeed correct. So, as you say, it really is high time for the WRSJFA clubs to do what is best for them. For many ambitious clubs this has got to be registering their interest in a WoSFL. For those ambitious clubs in the ERSJFA that are south of the Tay the answer is, and has been for the last two seasons, a move along the now well trodden path to the EoSFL.

If the LL do indeed propose this at the PWG on Wednesday and it is supported by the EoSFL (which I imagine is pretty much a given) and the SoSFL (perhaps not so much of a given?) then it really could break the logjam. The SJFA may very well oppose it on the grounds that it doesn't allow all of their members into the pyramid in one fell swoop and, as a consequence, allow them to retain the degree of relevance they so fervently wish to have - but surely that's not the aim of the PWG anyway, the aim is to create a West feeder to the Pyramid and with the SJFA steadfastly standing in the way of this by dint of their insistence that everything must be rejigged to suit their demands another way must be found and this appears to be it. Should the SFA fail to back such a plan, against the wishes of member clubs playing in leagues already in the Pyramid in favour of backing SJFA demands re their entry, an SJFA with only one SFA member club, then it really is a wee coven of pals along the Hampden corridor from each other contriving to scratch each others backs.

Which is an entirely clear and exactly how it should be vision. West clubs in the west, east clubs in the east, south clubs in.....well, you know how it goes. It’s not a difficult concept for anyone to grasp.

Wait. Just wait a minute. Have any of these organisations thought to engage Lurker so that they can fully understand the nuances, inferences and subtleties of their own rules?

The EoSFL probably is a vessel that has sailed as far as Clydebank is concerned, Tier 7 or even Tier 8 entry as it would have to be next season isn’t what the Club will or should have in mind. The SoSFL is likely to give Tier 6 access straight away but might not be the ideal place for the Club to compete if at a later date a WoSFL became a reality. Much better, really, for Clydebank and clubs similarly minded to be in the Pyramid to be in a vanguard of clubs looking to set up a WoSFL, either by dint of their own efforts or in conjunction with any help that may be offered by the LL and/or EoSFL. As has been said, the set-up of the LL itself and the huge transition of ERSJFA clubs to the EoSFL at the outset of last season were each done in a quicker timescale than that which is available to west clubs now.

Potentially the first real opportunity you talk about might be coming sooner than you think and might very well be taken out of the SJFA's hands. For Junior clubs with ambition to join the Pyramid the end game may be coming and the time for decision making will be sooner than many think, what's happening is much more than just noise and Clydebank may be well advised to understand that.

Indeed. The most subtle of trolls, couched in comfortable, erudite language. I’m not entirely sure he believes it himself but he will continue to finesse a statement, a sentence or even a word to his take on the matter. You can mine anyone’s words and take from them what you want - this fella does this in spades. Someone said it has become tedious but it’s actually beyond that - way, way, way beyond that.

Mr. Johnson.....skipping all the way to his retirement package. Delay, obfuscate, delay again and throw in a bit of hoodwinking. This man is no fool but those who continue to put any sort of faith in him quite simply are. The advancement of a joined up football league in this country will not occur until this man is moved out of the way.

This. Absolutely, 100% this. No amount of obfuscation changes the facts of the matter. Astounding, completely, utterly and entirely astounding that the rump of clubs left in the ERSJFA south of the Tay cannot or will not see this.

You endlessly peddle the same old stuff from which you erroneously derive your skewed opinions that you then put forth as some sort of established fact. No matter how many times you do so, you will still be misrepresenting where we are and how we got here. Your suggestion of the ERSJFA at Tier 7 presents no different a problem as the ERSJFA at Tier 6, the geographical overlap still provides for a huge wedge driven between neighbouring teams in the east for no good reason other than to maintain a ‘grade’ of football. Why? It made no sense when first mooted, makes no sense now and will make no sense at any time in the future. Sadly, the simple truth of this will continue to elude you and you’ll be peddling it all again soon enough.

The aim isn’t to save the structure of the SJFA, the aim is to bring all those football clubs who wish to be in the Pyramid together into that Pyramid, your earlier suggestion was a good one which I agreed with but your obsession with ‘saving’ the SJFA is what will prevent it ever happening. Once in the Pyramid the Clubs are all Senior anyway. I have no wish to destroy the SJFA, only to see the game grow and progress properly. You incorrectly ascribe something to me to suit your own agenda.