Black & Red Socks

It isn't about keeping the SJFA intact. Just how long are you going to keep playing that tune?

This is certainly the direction in which thoughts should be moving, the oft mentioned wrinkle requiring the application of an iron being the HL/LL divide as it applies to the Tayside clubs. Either this or the Tayside clubs form a NoSFL with their NRSJFA counterparts. One or other of these 'solutions', along with the addition of the entire WRSJFA as a feeder to the LL, produces a form of Pyramid that I'd hope not too many would take issue with. West Lothian clubs joining the EoSFL should really be a given as three of their clubs are already competing in that league set-up.

I think your characterisation of the EoSFL's position is entirely wrong. However, I would agree that the ERSJFA accepting that their integration into the Pyramid requires a quite different solution and standing aside to allow WRSJFA integration to be achieved unhindered would resolve the current impasse, particularly as it would certainly appear to any outsider looking in that the remaining clubs in the ERSJFA have very little desire to be involved anyway. Really, this proposition and what BM is saying should have happened at the end of last season (the SJFA inviting the ERSJFA to stand aside to allow WRSJFA integration into the Pyramid to happen) are pretty much the same so I can't quite see why you're both so keen to be at loggerheads with each other!!

This is exactly the proposal - apparently made from the floor - that every single EoSFL club representative supported at the General Meeting attended by Rod Petrie and Ian Maxwell, as did the top table. Every. Single. One. You'd have to ask the SFA and, in particular, the SJFA why this didn't then come to pass.

God give me strength. Your nuanced point is utterly immaterial and is being used to apportion blame to the EoSFL and LL where none exists. There is no 'all-in' approach. The issues you state that preclude a need for a solution in the North are no more or less valid than the issues that preclude a parallel league solution in the East. If the SJFA were genuine in their 'all-in' approach then they would be insisting on the north region coming in at Tier 6 under the HFL, immaterial of whether licensed clubs there can currently gain access to the HFL by application. Promotion or relegation may not initially be possible but the region would become part of the pyramid and, if a licensed club eventually emerged, promotion is then available other than through application. I'm neither advocating or criticising this approach, merely stating that those behind an 'all-in' agenda would be pushing it alongside east region and west region pyramid access if they were genuine in their 'all-in' assertion. They're not. No 'all-in' approach actually exists, even though that is the mandate the SJFA were given. Unhitch all three wagons from each other and there could be immediate progress. Do you really not grasp this or are you going to continue with the same old folly that has gone nowhere and will continue to go nowhere?

You just drone on and on and on about the same thing despite numerous different posters making it abundantly clear that there is absolutely no opposition to the west region clubs entering the pyramid, either as a whole or through the formation of a WoSFL. Hitching the west region wagon to the east region one is what put paid to the west being in the Pyramid this year and this is an SJFA policy (a pretty blurry one when you consider the 'all-in' mantra doesn't really mean 'all-in' when the north region is being left to do its own thing). You constantly clinging to the absurdity of your recent raft of posts won't change that. If the SJFA representatives on the PWG play their cards in the same way you do then no wonder we can't move on.

The only patently absurd position here is the one you hold. Your constant misinterpreting of events that leads to your constant misrepresentation of these events is draining. You go on and on but provide little in the way of evidence to back up what are merely assertions built on your misinterpretations. There are people who were actually in the room when much of which you misinterpret was discussed and dismissed yet you refuse to accept what they say. Patently absurd. The Juniors were not blocked by the EoSFL or the LL and this is quite simply a fact. The WRSJFA would have been in the pyramid now but for the SJFA leadership shackling their entry to the entry of the ERSJFA (note, not with the NRSJFA so no entire Junior entry was ever envisaged by the SJFA anyway). This too is fact. What was blocked was a parallel league in the East. Another fact. To view matters in any other way is patently absurd. You know this, I know this and, indeed, everyone reading this thread now knows this. Why does it have to be constantly repeated for you?

If I understand what went down at the end of last season and at the EoS General Meeting attended by Ian Maxwell and Rod Petrie correctly, the compromise you are talking about was merely Petrie casting about for support as he floundered under a barrage of criticism. It was never, at any stage, put to a vote so, accordingly, was never "blocked" by the LL. I support entirely your point re relegation from the Lowland League.

See above. Namely the bit about a "ludicrously ill-conceived, 'quick, cast around for another idea' suggestion".

It really was as simple as G4Mac states. The compromise you mention was never seriously proposed and, if it had been, would have been viewed as the ludicrously ill-conceived, 'quick, cast around for another idea' suggestion that it was. The route to the Pyramid is as open to the west region today as it always has been, no one other than the hierarchy of the SJFA stands in the way.

That is indeed incredibly weird behaviour, bordering on psychotic.

With all due respect, I think that Clydebank making such an announcement had very, very little impact on the decision making processes of the great majority of clubs in the east who chose to make the move into Senior football. I'd be surprised if some of the committees concerned even knew about what Clydebank said they were or weren't going to do.

Is that correct, only £60k for the Scottish Cup winners and £30k for the runners up? Wow, BBC Match of the Day presenters get more than that for one show, which highlights what our clubs are up against financially - if, indeed, £60k/£30k is the case.....

Prediction - no club, not one, zero, nil, nada, zip will ever, ever, EVER move back from the Pyramid and the EoSFL and the total professionalism it offers to the pitiful, archaic, backwater offering the Juniors provide. It simply will not happen - keep kidding yourself it will as each hour and each day you do hastens the demise of the Juniors, which is a crying shame as to evolve, as everything does and should, a move to the Pyramid must be the eventual outcome for clubs who want to progress rather than stagnate in a dreadfully parochial wee Ayrshire backwater. If your club doesn’t see the sense in this then a slow, lingering passage into irrelevance awaits and it will be you and your like to blame. Please feel free to quote me on this if the day ever happens that a club moves from the EoSFL to the ERSJFA - I’ll sleep well in the knowledge that it won’t ever happen as it’s a bit like saying “you know what, 4G is magic but I yearn to get back to the days of dial up”.

If we use past actions to judge future actions then the introduction of Associate memberships will have absolutely nothing to do with the furtherance of inclusivity, which is disappointing as it could be a useful tool to signpost the way forward for Clubs and the improvements required as they move up the Pyramid and transition from Associate to Full members. I feel, though, it is all to do with self preservation and, as such, is a missed opportunity. BM - where you state that " if you fall out of tier 5 your Associate membership will be removed" I think you mean a Club's Full membership (which they will have been upgraded to from Associate membership on promotion) will be recalibrated back to Associate membership? (*not applicable to current Full members who will retain that status - license retention permitting - regardless of which Tier they are in?)

There is a Pyramid, the question is will sufficient West teams who have a desire to be part of it have the notion to speak with each other and realise that their best interests will only be served by severing ties with the Junior grade and making a move to form a WoSFL? Forever hitching your wagon to those who are happy to swim in their slowly draining pond (apologies for mixing metaphors!) and have no desire to engage with the outside world is guaranteed to ensure that your club and others of similar ambition will perennially be stuck on the outside looking in. If, as stated above, it's true that TJ voted to support the resolution that suitable new applicants to the SFA henceforth will only be Associate Members until such times as they reach Tier 5 and he subsequently uses this as an example of just why there is no benefit in moving into the Pyramid then the question is, how long are Clubs going to accept being played?

If this turns out to be true - and of course it mightn't be and we might never really know, but if it does - then this is the measure of the man. Does he actually do anything that is in the best interests of his own member clubs (as it will be those of them who have ambitions to apply for membership of the SFA in the fullness of time who will be adversely affected here) or is everything he does calculated to preserve his own status within the games governing body i.e. in this instance he can go back to his membership with another example of why they should stick with the Juniors and with him as there is even more limited chance of progression in the Seniors when the SFA are imposing ever more stringent requirements on prospective members with ever more diminishing benefits?

This is broadly in line with what I’ve heard and understand, but I guess it could be the thin end of the wedge and might be seen as preparing the ground as far as trying to further marginalise and limit the membership benefits of those outwith the top 5 tiers is concerned. What I’m not clear on is this - does ‘Associate Membership’ apply to the six clubs awarded membership today or have they got in before the door was slammed behind them? I’m assuming from the photos posted that show certificates with the words “Full Member” on them that they are indeed full members with the accompanying voting rights et al and not just associate ones?

Dearie me.....fingers in ears, continue the sprint to oblivion. If ever there was a perfect metaphor for many within the Junior grade, this is it. Wow.

In answer to this specific point, I really can't see that the Juniors in their present form have any sort of bright future at all. It may take a little time yet, but if they remain on the outside of the pyramid looking in then they will eventually die of a thousand cuts - players being lost to the Senior game, Sponsors being lost to the Senior game, media exposure becoming even less than it already is. The East Region has all but become a glorified amateur set-up - or is certainly about to - the North Region has just about always been such, other than a handful of teams, and seem happy to continue to be so while the West Region have been lead down the garden path by a campaign of misinformation that promised something that was palpably never going to happen. There really won't be many more opportunities left to get off a fast sinking ship. Those clubs below the HL/LL dividing line in the East with any embers of ambition still burning - if, indeed, there are any left - really have to move to the EoSFL while those north of the line need to join forces with the North Region to become a feeder to the Highland League. Clubs of any serious ambition in the West should be seriously considering the formation of a WoSFL.....continuing to wait for the SJFA to negotiate what they have failed to negotiate to this point is a fools game. For clubs who are happy just as they are, and I do understand that there are many, acceptance that the Juniors will, in the fullness of time, become merely an anachronism viewed in much the same way as the amateur grade is and based almost entirely in the west with a few outliers elsewhere is perhaps a future with which they are happy and they are absolutely entitled to view matters in this way.

Robert has lots - and lots - of good points to make and insightful comments to pass but, boy, does he not half grind everyone’s gears by asking question, upon question, upon question that has already been answered elsewhere - on top of putting forth opinion as if it was fact. Aaaarrrggh!!!!!

I’m not sure we have someone intent on spreading misinformation here, but what I think we do have with superbigal is a wee sweetie wife who is really, really keen to be seen to be the one to be passing on ‘kosher’ inside information and then extrapolating all sorts of ‘facts’ from that information.

Super?! [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

If someone at Gartcairn - sctv? - were to make it clear whether it was £10k - £15k for the 32 seat stand shown in the photo or whether it was that price for the same sort of design but with nearer the 100 seats you mention then I'm pretty sure there must be teams out there who would be interested, at least in getting an official quote to allow fundraising targets to be set.

Pyramid not to kick in until 2020/2021 season. So for next season goes regional then for 2020/2021 back to current set up with an equal split is a no brainer imo "Pyramid not to kick in until 2020/21 season"? Who is feeding you this? There already is a Pyramid, one that has no ERSJFA representation and one that will never have ERSJFA representation no matter how the deckchairs are organised on their sinking ship. This isn't opinion, this is now established fact. How long are member clubs going to keep their heads buried deep in the sand alongside that of their governing body? The warnings have been there since last year and still no alarm bells are ringing? Wow. Season 2018/19 - Tier 6 football on offer if moving to the EoSFL. West Lothian clubs Broxburn, Blackburn & Linlithgow move Season 2019/20 - Tier 7 football on offer if moving to the EoSFL. Remaining West Lothian clubs keep their heads in the sand and reorganise into leagues offering no more appeal, and no more relevance, than the local Saturday & Sunday amateurs Season 2020/21 - Tier 8 football likely to be the best offer available if moving to the EoSFL. Remaining West Lothian clubs next move? How deep is the sand?