Livingston - all the threads merged

[ATLIS]

And we’re meant to believe these accounts have nothing to do with either of the two dragging the club into court  

I wonder when this person will eventually realise that no one is taking their bait, no one’s buying into their side of the story. 

[Livi]

17 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

And we’re meant to believe these accounts have nothing to do with either of the two dragging the club into court  

I wonder when this person will eventually realise that no one is taking their bait, no one’s buying into their side of the story. 

Sounds like a deflection post.

The irony is not lost.

 

[LIVIFOREVER]

23 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

And we’re meant to believe these accounts have nothing to do with either of the two dragging the club into court  

I wonder when this person will eventually realise that no one is taking their bait, no one’s buying into their side of the story. 

Aye it's a waste of time replying to them, they'll just feed of you and keep it going for as long as they get bites. Got to the stage i'm putting them on ignore setting, they're just spamming the board with this nonsense.

That's Scrutinizer, Livi, and Roger the cabin boy on ignore now, bliss.

Edited December 16, 2023 by LIVIFOREVER

[Sergeant Wilson]

On 15/12/2023 at 10:39, larry the lion said:

Can an admin create a 'Livi Finances' or 'Livingston; Behind the scenes' (or similar) thread and move all the posts (and posters) around the politics somewhere else?

There are deffo folks with an axe to grind and people with multiple accounts dominating with these topics. I'm sure it's relevant, but it's also killing off any chance of a bit of banter and sucking the energy out of the room. 

Also, has anyone heard of not hanging out dirty laundry in public, seems quite deliberate from some of the comments. 

If we're all Livi fans, the chat should be about what we can do to help the team and Management on and off the field, shouldn't it? 

 

[larry the lion]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

 

Thx Sarg, but the ostrich analogy was a LOT better; it actually related to my inner fears and concerns for Livi's off-pitch machinations, which are as tangible as the spoofers and wind-up merchants concerns I referred to previously. Moving a topic to a separate dedicated thread is different from totally ignoring a problem. 

Anyway, do you know about this topic, are you an interested party or just...well whatever that was...

Edited December 16, 2023 by larry the lion
vacuum cleaners

[Sergeant Wilson]

4 hours ago, larry the lion said:

Thx Sarg, but the ostrich analogy was a LOT better; it actually related to my inner fears and concerns for Livi's off-pitch machinations, which are as tangible as the spoofers and wind-up merchants concerns I referred to previously. Moving a topic to a separate dedicated thread is different from totally ignoring a problem. 

Anyway, do you know about this topic, are you an interested party or just...well whatever that was...

Anybody who isn't familiar with Rankin and his impact on football hasn't been paying attention for about the last thirtyish years. The fact he's still doing his stuff disgusts and amuses me at the same time. But Livingston invited him in against all Logic, so probably deserve him. He stands like a collosus over all the other charlatans in Scottish football.

[ATLIS]

2 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

Anybody who isn't familiar with Rankin and his impact on football hasn't been paying attention for about the last thirtyish years. The fact he's still doing his stuff disgusts and amuses me at the same time. But Livingston invited him in against all Logic, so probably deserve him. He stands like a collosus over all the other charlatans in Scottish football.

It's taking us a long long time to shake him off, once we finally do then it'll be a great day. 

[Livi]

15 hours ago, ATLIS said:

It's taking us a long long time to shake him off, once we finally do then it'll be a great day. 

I am not sure he wants to hang around. He must be a fair age now? It seems he just wants a payout for money he feels he is owed.
 

When the others follow him out the front door then it will be a great day.

[crispy]

No doubt that this is the clubs most successful period for a generation. Could do without the off field distractions as it can’t be helping the club.

[larry the lion]

I think DM need a bit of distance between him and the players . He and the relationship he had as coach then manager must have evolved, people grow and change. Maybe a shake up of staff might help unlock the playing potential we clearly have. Looks to me like there's a bit of brake-fade.

A new Head Coach, that is in between players and DM, and a sports psychologist would be beneficial, especially the Head Coach. We literally don't have one and I think Davie thinks he's still that guy, but imo he needs to step back, and work with the talent, both staff and players if he wants to reach the next stage in his and the clubs development. The structure is wrong ( no official head coach ; Manager and 2x 1st team coaches only)

I feel bad saying this but Hastings could be replaced with the New Head Coach's preferred person as well. Upgrade time.

The team need more people they can rely on and look up to, that is a players coach and has experience.

 

On the whole topic of the off field 'troubles'. It might be useful if someone who is clearly well versed in the timelines and claims/counter claims, could summarise in a non-biased way, what the fcuk is actually going on?

Is it; 

• We're trying to get dosh back from Hogarth that LFC believe he shouldn't have taken? If he had put money in, isn't he entitled to get it back? 
• We are trying to contest Rankine's position that we owe him money? Again, if he put it in, shouldn't he get it back
• We have Rankine and summer blocking the sale of shares to a new Investor? Due to it undermining their own share value? Is that legal/ illegal? 
• What else?

Put it all in a post and then everyone knows as much as everyone else and we can focus on trying to help if we can. 

Apologies to everyone that knows all the ins and out already.

Edited December 17, 2023 by larry the lion

[Sergeant Wilson]

2 hours ago, Livi said:

I am not sure he wants to hang around. He must be a fair age now? It seems he just wants a payout for money he feels he is owed.

That's the c**t's reason for living, he's  been owed money by half of Scotland.

[Rogier le Garcon de Cabine]

2 hours ago, larry the lion said:

• We're trying to get dosh back from Hogarth that LFC believe he shouldn't have taken? If he had put money in, isn't he entitled to get it back? 

Hogarth took back his money, his emergency loans that are repayable on demand, at the start of December 2019. Livingston started their legal battle with him sometime near the end of 2021 - there was a massive amount of time spent in the Sheriff Court, and eventually the Court of Session, chasing him for even more money.

After wasting six-figures paying King's Counsel and other lawyers, Livingston's case was thrown out - here's a quick 2min read from Scottish Legal News : https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/former-livingston-fc-director-has-claim-against-him-for-misappropriation-of-club-money-dismissed. 

longer read where you can see arguments: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2023csoh71.pdf?sfvrsn=4758ad6_1

Because the case has been thrown out, Livingston will have to pay a large portion of the defendant's (Hogarth's) fees. If they want to resurrect the case and pursue Hogarth again, a fresh action must be raised.

2 hours ago, larry the lion said:

• We are trying to contest Rankine's position that we owe him money? Again, if he put it in, shouldn't he get it back

If there is some kind of written agreement saying otherwise, then yeah, they pretty much should be giving the money back. Yes we're the lowest funded team in the league but there'll still be money floating about, funds have been frozen before in scenarios like this (Gordon McDougall froze monies when we were in league 1) 

Court date for this case is the end of January some time. When it's done there'll be pdf's to follow like those above. This will also be extremely expensive, for a trial you can expect double of what's already been spent up to this point. 

 

2 hours ago, larry the lion said:

• We have Rankine and summer blocking the sale of shares to a new Investor? Due to it undermining their own share value? Is that legal/ illegal? 

A controversial point of discussion as it's currently being framed as blocking investment, despite mr Mcilvogue not bringing any. 

A petition was recently put to the court of session by Hogarth, and eventually given the Judge's blessing, halting the sale of the parent company that own Livingston FC (OPPCO 6).

Shareholder view is that the director's of the company have sold it without their consent. Control of a premiership club has been sold by the directors (ward, cullen) for 400k, which shareholders are also calling an undervaluation - league 1, and championship clubs have been sold for, and are worth much more. St Johnstone in our league is worth over 10 million pounds for example. 

This is the third scheme concocted by the board of directors (John Ward, Paul Cullen) to take control/dilute shareholder power.

The first main scheme was to dilute every single share (even the ones held by fans) by issuing 6 million 1p shares (existing shares cost £1), so someone with the cash could gain complete control of the club for £60,000 worth of 1p shares. If you're a fan who spent 100 quid of shares in livi, it would be worth one pound. Or if you're Sumner or Hogarth, your shareholder power is one hundredth of what it used to be.

Normally when something like this is launched, existing shareholders get 'pre-emption' rights that allow them their pro-rata share of these newly issued shares (for cash) - The current directors wanted to issue these new shares *without* pre-emption rights for existing shareholders.

The second scheme I can't quite remember as it was a lot less elaborate, though it had something to do with issuing more shares and not approaching existing shareholders once again.

Anyway, Oppco, its board, have to now defend this new scheme and argue that it was done in the shareholders' best interests.

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Rogier le Garcon de Cabine
added a link for pre-emption rights definition

[LIVIFOREVER]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

That's the c**t's reason for living, he's  been owed money by half of Scotland.

Yep he was owed money by Dumbarton (think it was around 200K) and had shares in East Fife, with his 'friend' involved with East Fife too, while being involved at Livi, breaking the SFA rules. He's been hanging around ever since, though we've at least got rid of his direct influence from inside the club.

[Livi]

11 minutes ago, Rogier le Garcon de Cabine said:

Hogarth took back his money, his emergency loans that are repayable on demand, at the start of December 2019. Livingston started their legal battle with him sometime near the end of 2021 - there was a massive amount of time spent in the Sheriff Court, and eventually the Court of Session, chasing him for even more money.

After wasting six-figures paying King's Counsel and other lawyers, Livingston's case was thrown out - here's a quick 2min read from Scottish Legal News : https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/former-livingston-fc-director-has-claim-against-him-for-misappropriation-of-club-money-dismissed. 

longer read where you can see arguments: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2023csoh71.pdf?sfvrsn=4758ad6_1

Because the case has been thrown out, Livingston will have to pay a large portion of the defendant's (Hogarth's) fees. If they want to resurrect the case and pursue Hogarth again, a fresh action must be raised.

If there is some kind of written agreement saying otherwise, then yeah, they pretty much should be giving the money back. Yes we're the lowest funded team in the league but there'll still be money floating about, funds have been frozen before in scenarios like this (Gordon McDougall froze monies when we were in league 1) 

Court date for this case is the end of January some time. When it's done there'll be pdf's to follow like those above. This will also be extremely expensive, for a trial you can expect double of what's already been spent up to this point. 

 

A controversial point of discussion as that it's being framed as blocking investment, despite mr Mcilvogue not bringing any. 

A petition was recently put to the court of session by Hogarth, and eventually given the Judge's blessing, halting the sale of the parent company that own Livingston FC (OPPCO 6).

Shareholder view is that the director's of the company have sold it without their consent. Control of a premiership club has been sold by the directors (ward, cullen) for 400k, which shareholders are also calling an undervaluation - league 1, and championship clubs have been sold for, and are worth much more. St Johnstone in our league is worth over 10 million pounds for example. 

This is the third scheme concocted by the board of directors (John Ward, Paul Cullen) to take control/dilute shareholder power.

The first main scheme was to dilute every single share (even the ones held by fans) by issuing 6 million 1p shares (existing shares cost £1), so someone with the cash could gain complete control of the club for £60,000 worth of 1p shares. If you're a fan who spent 100 quid of shares in livi, it would be worth one pound. Or if you're Sumner or Hogarth, your shareholder power is one hundredth of what it used to be.

Normally when something like this is launched, existing shareholders get 'pre-emption' rights that allow them their pro-rata share of these newly issued shares (for cash) - The current directors wanted to issue these new shares *without* pre-emption rights for existing shareholders.

The second scheme I can't quite remember as it was a lot less elaborate, though it had something to do with issuing more shares and not approaching existing shareholders once again.

Anyway, Oppco, its board, have to now defend this new scheme and argue that it was done in the shareholders' best interests.

 

Does Martindale have any shares / interest  in Oppco6? 

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, crispy said:

No doubt that this is the clubs most successful period for a generation. Could do without the off field distractions as it can’t be helping the club.

Longest run in the top flight anyway, having had 5 comfortable seasons, finishing top 6 twice, and reaching a cup final, and into our 6th season in the top flight. If we had won the cup i'd have it as our most successful full stop.

Which is not bad considering the shite we've been reading the last few pages on here, saying how bad Ward has been for Livi. 

[ATLIS]

What actual value does the club have? It’s nonsense to compare us to a club like St Johnstone when they own their stadium - that alone is worth a huge chunk of money. What do Livingston FC actually own as a club to drive that value up other than the status of a Premiership side?

[RandomGuy.]

41 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

What actual value does the club have? It’s nonsense to compare us to a club like St Johnstone when they own their stadium - that alone is worth a huge chunk of money. What do Livingston FC actually own as a club to drive that value up other than the status of a Premiership side?

Worth mentioning St Johnstone are selling 22 acres of land alongside the club and its facilities, when talking about how much we'll sell for.

[Rogier le Garcon de Cabine]

49 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

What actual value does the club have? It’s nonsense to compare us to a club like St Johnstone when they own their stadium - that alone is worth a huge chunk of money. What do Livingston FC actually own as a club to drive that value up other than the status of a Premiership side?

The value of the club is its premier league status. 

But ok, Lets set aside the disparity between St Johnstone and Livingston, and let's compare to Falkirik: a league 1 football club that doesn't own their stadium, a league 1 club that's posted a loss of 400k recently... a club that possibly earn less than 5 percent of the prize money Livingston receive from the FA.... Yet they've managed to sell ~15% of their club for 350 grand. 

 

Not bad for a club with no land @RandomGuy.

 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by Rogier le Garcon de Cabine

[Rogier le Garcon de Cabine]

5 hours ago, Rogier le Garcon de Cabine said:

Hogarth took back his money, his emergency loans that are repayable on demand, at the start of December 2019. Livingston started their legal battle with him sometime near the end of 2021 - there was a massive amount of time spent in the Sheriff Court, and eventually the Court of Session, chasing him for even more money.

After wasting six-figures paying King's Counsel and other lawyers, Livingston's case was thrown out - here's a quick 2min read from Scottish Legal News : https://www.scottishlegal.com/articles/former-livingston-fc-director-has-claim-against-him-for-misappropriation-of-club-money-dismissed. 

longer read where you can see arguments: https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/docs/default-source/cos-general-docs/pdf-docs-for-opinions/2023csoh71.pdf?sfvrsn=4758ad6_1

Because the case has been thrown out, Livingston will have to pay a large portion of the defendant's (Hogarth's) fees. If they want to resurrect the case and pursue Hogarth again, a fresh action must be raised.

If there is some kind of written agreement saying otherwise, then yeah, they pretty much should be giving the money back. Yes we're the lowest funded team in the league but there'll still be money floating about, funds have been frozen before in scenarios like this (Gordon McDougall froze monies when we were in league 1) 

Court date for this case is the end of January some time. When it's done there'll be pdf's to follow like those above. This will also be extremely expensive, for a trial you can expect double of what's already been spent up to this point. 

 

A controversial point of discussion as it's currently being framed as blocking investment, despite mr Mcilvogue not bringing any. 

A petition was recently put to the court of session by Hogarth, and eventually given the Judge's blessing, halting the sale of the parent company that own Livingston FC (OPPCO 6).

Shareholder view is that the director's of the company have sold it without their consent. Control of a premiership club has been sold by the directors (ward, cullen) for 400k, which shareholders are also calling an undervaluation - league 1, and championship clubs have been sold for, and are worth much more. St Johnstone in our league is worth over 10 million pounds for example. 

This is the third scheme concocted by the board of directors (John Ward, Paul Cullen) to take control/dilute shareholder power.

The first main scheme was to dilute every single share (even the ones held by fans) by issuing 6 million 1p shares (existing shares cost £1), so someone with the cash could gain complete control of the club for £60,000 worth of 1p shares. If you're a fan who spent 100 quid of shares in livi, it would be worth one pound. Or if you're Sumner or Hogarth, your shareholder power is one hundredth of what it used to be.

Normally when something like this is launched, existing shareholders get 'pre-emption' rights that allow them their pro-rata share of these newly issued shares (for cash) - The current directors wanted to issue these new shares *without* pre-emption rights for existing shareholders.

The second scheme I can't quite remember as it was a lot less elaborate, though it had something to do with issuing more shares and not approaching existing shareholders once again.

Anyway, Oppco, its board, have to now defend this new scheme and argue that it was done in the shareholders' best interests.

 

. worth carrying this over to the other page @ATLIS for everyone else to see

[ATLIS]

11 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Worth mentioning St Johnstone are selling 22 acres of land alongside the club and its facilities, when talking about how much we'll sell for.

Every time I think I've got this guy's account blocked he makes a new one  Anyway, there's an example of them providing one sided facts to back up their support of Rankine/Hogarth. I think that's going on about 6 months+ they've been at it ffs