Livingston - all the threads merged

[CharlieWhisky]

6 hours ago, crispy said:

I imagine the hope would be that the goals would come from Anderson (was it 15 last year?) and Tete would help get the team established up the park.

Anderson scored 7 goals last season in 36 games, hardly prolific.

[CharlieWhisky]

Played very well today. Not enough for a result and that’s all anyone will appreciate in time, but we’re not going to set records for being terrible if we play anything like that for the rest of the season. 
 

If only we’d played like that against the weaker opponents of the last few games..

[LIVIFOREVER]

Yep Yengi looks composed on the ball, has quick feet, and looks after the ball well, much like Nouble was at the start of last season, pleased with what i've seen so far.

 

Much, much better performance, kept it on the deck more and made forward passes, if we can stay sensible with the starting line up and show the same desire in our remaining games we might have a fighting chance of staying up. One swallow doesn't make a summer though, this needs to be how we keep playing when we come back from the break.

 

I was resigned to being relegated by a good margin, and papped out the cup by Raith, but feeling there's a bit of a spark in the team still. Keep playing the young guys in their natural positions, and stop fucking about with Nouble at RWB, and we're in with a chance. Hopefully Donnellan is also decent looking.

Edited January 2 by LIVIFOREVER

[crispy]

45 minutes ago, CharlieWhisky said:

Anderson scored 7 goals last season in 36 games, hardly prolific.

Only 7 Thought it was more. Either way it’s going to have to be him I think because we know that established, prolific strikers aren’t going to be signing at Livingston nor available for free in January.

Edit: think I mixed this up with Forrest a year ago and we know what happened there… Come to think of it, isn’t Hearts’ relative ‘success’ and growth propped up big donations from fans? Livi need a lottery winner .. oh wait.

Edited January 2 by crispy

[LIVIFOREVER]

7 hours ago, EdinburghLivi said:

Martindale made 3 big decisions today but crucially missed the 4th which would have probably gotten us at least a point from the game. 

1. George dropped for Hamilton. Hamilton's kicking wasn't great but the defence looked more assured and he made a good save against Forrest at the end. Not super different from the 2nd Bair goal on Saturday where George fell on his arse and made it easy for him. Please please stick with him after the break.

2. Nouble dropped. Might be coincidence but that was our best start to a game all season. We looked so much better than we had been. When Nouble came on at the end, he was further forward (needs to stop fucking around at the edge of the 18 yard box and get closer to the byeline) and showed some improvement.

3. Going to a genuine attacking formation with back 4 as we chased the game. The 5 had looked better than it has all season but I thought we looked much more threatening. 

The fourth decision was probably the most difficult to make but should have happened after the shambles on Saturday. I don't know if it's confidence or if he's physically struggling but Michael Devlin was so easy to play against as soon as Hearts realised how slow he is. After the horrific penalty he gave away, Martindale should have brought De Lucas on against Vargas' pace but he didn't learn and we went (I think) undeservedly 1 down. Second goal looked like a nice bit of play on first viewing.

Even in defeat, I think that was the best we've looked all season. It's a team clearly low on confidence but we were unlucky to lose. Give me a performance like that any day as opposed to the timid display we served up against St. Johnstone in getting a point. 

Other positives included Shinnie and Bradley making me look like a clown from my comments from last week - both were effective in the middle of the park. I thought Tete looked promising in his debut and I think he will work well with Guthrie or Anderson (not both as per the end of the game which ruined our momentum). Guthrie again caused problems for the opposition. 

Yes, it's another loss but that performance should genuinely give us something to build on (should we continue to pick the majority of correct players) rather than the displays that Martindale has praised in recent months. We really need to beat Dundee and Ross County at home after the break but with that game and a chance to reset, I think we're in a much better position to do that than at any time since our winless run began.

Agree with you about Devlin, his lack of pace is costing us, though it was Montano failing to hold the line that played Vargas onside, he's looking right across, poor from Montano not seeing it. 

 

Think we need to stick to playing CB's in defence, same way as we needed to stick with FB's playing in their positions, and stop playing players out of position, either that or bring in another CB if he hasn't confidence in Nottingham and de Lucas doing their jobs. Though Nottingham came on when Penrice was injured, for Montano to move to his natural position, so he should've been subbed on to start with.

For me Devlin should be doing more for Shankland's goal, and moving towards him to close down the shot, he just stands there waiting on Shankland picking his spot, then turns away from the shot, making his body smaller. That shows lack of commitment, we want to see our players throwing themselves into blocking shots, not shirking away. 

 

Much better offensively, and in midfield, but still need to sort out defensive problems, or we're going to continue conceding avoidable goals and make it harder to get points.

Edited January 3 by LIVIFOREVER

[thruthenight]

Guess there's now more context as to why De Lucas hasn't been picked recently.

 

I say that, there's no context to this. I know people need to be shipped out, but this still feels harsh. Prone to a brain fart, but was our best defender for our best spell this season.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

15 minutes ago, thruthenight said:

Guess there's now more context as to why De Lucas hasn't been picked recently.

 

Quote from the statement said he's asked for his contract to be terminated due to homesickness and that may be 100% true but it doesn't sit well with me. 

Got the impression that Martindale didn't rate him but I thought he was solid enough with the occasional lapse in concentration. 

He was the only central defender we had with a small modicum of pace so losing him isn't great. 

Our CB options are now Devlin, Parkes, Obileye & Nottingham and possibly Donnellan but I was hoping he'd nail down the RB / RWB role. So I'd hope we're looking for another CB especially after how bad Devlin was yesterday. 

[Waspie]

14 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

 

Keep playing the young guys in their natural positions, and stop fucking about with Nouble at RWB, and we're in with a chance.

This didn't start after Rice arrived, did it? Playing people out of position was his big thing at Alloa, with an attacking CM at RWB being the most frustrating of the lot. Things much better at Alloa since he left. 

Edited January 3 by Waspie

[Livi La Vida Loca]

Just now, Waspie said:

This didn't start after Rice arrived, did it? Playing people out of position was his big thing at Alloa, with an attacking CM at RWB being the most frustrating of the lot. Things much better at Alloa since he left. 

Nah Martindale has been doing it for a few years now. He loves a 'versatile' player. This season he really has been forcing square pegs into round holes though. 

[thruthenight]

3 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Quote from the statement said he's asked for his contract to be terminated due to homesickness and that may be 100% true but it doesn't sit well with me. 

Got the impression that Martindale didn't rate him but I thought he was solid enough with the occasional lapse in concentration. 

He was the only central defender we had with a small modicum of pace so losing him isn't great. 

Our CB options are now Devlin, Parkes, Obileye & Nottingham and possibly Donnellan but I was hoping he'd nail down the RB / RWB role. So I'd hope we're looking for another CB especially after how bad Devlin was yesterday. 

Yeah, something smells off there. Martindale clearly didn't rate him after one too many blunders, and he's spent the last 4 years in Finland/Scotland so that homesickness must have come on pretty quickly.

Tbf, if he didn't want to be a bit part player in a relegation battle, moving him on is probably the most sensible thing to do.

[Waspie]

12 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Nah Martindale has been doing it for a few years now. He loves a 'versatile' player. This season he really has been forcing square pegs into round holes though. 

I just wondered when Nouble was quoted as saying he didn't really like RWB after being deployed there in recent weeks! Martindale's comments the other day about tactics, shape etc being irrelevant and players not doing what they were told was almost Brian Rice word for word from a couple of months ago. Looks like they are well suited anyway. 

[CharlieWhisky]

DM interview yesterday: “After the Motherwell game I told the players ‘get your agent to phone me on 3 January if you’re not up for it’.” 

[Cptn Hooch]

1 hour ago, thruthenight said:

Guess there's now more context as to why De Lucas hasn't been picked recently.

 

I say that, there's no context to this. I know people need to be shipped out, but this still feels harsh. Prone to a brain fart, but was our best defender for our best spell this season.

I believe he tried to lay Martindale out with a headbutt after being dropped due to his Dundee performance 

[TheLad]

1 hour ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Quote from the statement said he's asked for his contract to be terminated due to homesickness and that may be 100% true but it doesn't sit well with me. 

Got the impression that Martindale didn't rate him but I thought he was solid enough with the occasional lapse in concentration. 

He was the only central defender we had with a small modicum of pace so losing him isn't great. 

Our CB options are now Devlin, Parkes, Obileye & Nottingham and possibly Donnellan but I was hoping he'd nail down the RB / RWB role. So I'd hope we're looking for another CB especially after how bad Devlin was yesterday. 

Don't think it was so much homesickness, rather, sick of this being his home....

As for DMs 'I need players who will run through brick walls for me' pish. So cringe. It's not all about you Davie! Too many managers in the game with this frail attitude. 

[Freedom Farter]

Shinnie showed yesterday that in home matches on the slower pitch and when we're trying to play more proactively, he can be a decent midfield organiser for us alongside Holt. It was good to see us finally ditching what I call our "medium throws" (as Nottingham doesn't seem to have an especially long throw) and instead looking to work a cross from throw ins. Shinnie's for Guthrie's offside goal was excellent. Credit to Shinnie for scoring his penalty too.

Nice to see Obileye providing a threat from set pieces again. His early header on target and he looked useful with his feet from a couple later on in the match. I know Peter Grant slagged him on Sportscene for Motherwell's third goal last Saturday and there probably was some criticism due there but I've otherwise been fine with Obileye's performances since returning from injury. I think he can improve in the second half of the season, getting back to his best form. Consistent selection of the two players either side of him would help.

Devlin struggled yesterday, held back by both his lack of pace and a hesitancy in the challenge. The penalty concession was poor, you could see it coming as Forrest was gaining on him. I read folk's comments here predicting Donnellan will come in at right wing back. That could be the case but its worth noting Donnellan spent this season and last playing right centre back in a three. With De Lucas' departure now too, it might be the plan for Donnellan to compete with Nottingham for the right centre back position. That'll keep Devlin on the left where hopefully he can improve his form.

Penrice and Brandon I really like as wing backs. The former is a nailed down starter now and the latter is getting there.

Bradley had a better time of it in that right attacking mid role than in his first attempt (the last Dundee home match). His cut back from the byline to almost set up Guthrie was good. Part of the difficulty Bradley faced yesterday was that he's not a confident dribbler, instead preferring passing combinations with his fellow attackers. He finds that easier with Pittman, Anderson, Stephen Kelly, Shinnie and others but Guthrie is on a different wavelength. 

Yengi came on as an ostensibly right sided attacker yet regularly received the ball with his back to goal in a more central, attacking midfield space. He turned each time excellently and moved the ball on well. We saw Shankland for Hearts yesterday play as a withdrawn centre forward and perhaps Yengi could do something similar for us. Given Martindale often doesn't want Anderson at centre forward and rarely sees Nouble as an option there, my hope now is for Yengi to replace Guthrie in the position. 

Edit: Forgot Hamilton. Excellent performance.

Edited January 3 by Freedom Farter

[Freedom Farter]

2 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

I believe he tried to lay Martindale out with a headbutt after being dropped due to his Dundee performance 

Do you mean in the dressing room immediately after the Dundee match? Or at some point in the following days before the Hearts match (whenever Martindale announced the line up)?

[Freedom Farter]

2 hours ago, TheLad said:

Don't think it was so much homesickness, rather, sick of this being his home....

As for DMs 'I need players who will run through brick walls for me' pish. So cringe. It's not all about you Davie! Too many managers in the game with this frail attitude. 

Steve Lawson left because he didn't rate his chances of ever becoming a regular starter at Livi. Martindale confirmed in his match review yesterday this was also the reason De Lucas has left. The club statement on both players' departure just put homesickness because that's an easier line to go with.

[LIVIFOREVER]

3 hours ago, Waspie said:

I just wondered when Nouble was quoted as saying he didn't really like RWB after being deployed there in recent weeks! Martindale's comments the other day about tactics, shape etc being irrelevant and players not doing what they were told was almost Brian Rice word for word from a couple of months ago. Looks like they are well suited anyway. 

Yeah esp after being sarcastically cheered off when he was being subbed, and booed by some of our fans too. But his form fell off a cliff last season and has continued being half hearted looking, playing well within himself when we know he can be much better. So isn't just about playing a a RWB and being exposed defensively, fans are just pissed off with him not giving enough.

What is really annoying me is he's being selected when we have young players that can do much better for us, playing in their natural positions, Bradley and Stephen Kelly have been used sparingly, we need to start giving them games and bin Nouble, unless he suddenly starts showing us the form he had when he came to us from being on loan at Arbroath.

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, TheLad said:

Don't think it was so much homesickness, rather, sick of this being his home....

As for DMs 'I need players who will run through brick walls for me' pish. So cringe. It's not all about you Davie! Too many managers in the game with this frail attitude. 

Have to agree with him, for instance Devlin didn't close Shankland down to stop him shooting, then ducked out the way of the shot, turning his body away, i want to see our players throwing themselves into blocking shots. 

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Shinnie showed yesterday that in home matches on the slower pitch and when we're trying to play more proactively, he can be a decent midfield organiser for us alongside Holt. It was good to see us finally ditching what I call our "medium throws" (as Nottingham doesn't seem to have an especially long throw) and instead looking to work a cross from throw ins. Shinnie's for Guthrie's offside goal was excellent. Credit to Shinnie for scoring his penalty too.

Nice to see Obileye providing a threat from set pieces again. His early header on target and he looked useful with his feet from a couple later on in the match. I know Peter Grant slagged him on Sportscene for Motherwell's third goal last Saturday and there probably was some criticism due there but I've otherwise been fine with Obileye's performances since returning from injury. I think he can improve in the second half of the season, getting back to his best form. Consistent selection of the two players either side of him would help.

Devlin struggled yesterday, held back by both his lack of pace and a hesitancy in the challenge. The penalty concession was poor, you could see it coming as Forrest was gaining on him. I read folk's comments here predicting Donnellan will come in at right wing back. That could be the case but its worth noting Donnellan spent this season and last playing right centre back in a three. With De Lucas' departure now too, it might be the plan for Donnellan to compete with Nottingham for the right centre back position. Our strongest left centre back is Montano. Meaning Devlin is not among our best three centre backs, not in a back three system anyway, and the captaincy can easily be given to Obileye or Holt. I hope Martindale considers this, not necessarily permanently but Devlin shouldn't be undroppable.

Penrice and Brandon I really like as wing backs. The former is a nailed down starter now and the latter is getting there.

Bradley had a better time of it in that right attacking mid role than in his first attempt (the last Dundee home match). His cut back from the byline to almost set up Guthrie was good. Part of the difficulty Bradley faced yesterday was that he's not a confident dribbler, instead preferring passing combinations with his fellow attackers. He finds that easier with Pittman, Anderson, Stephen Kelly, Shinnie and others but Guthrie is on a different wavelength. 

Yengi came on as an ostensibly right sided attacker yet regularly received the ball with his back to goal in a more central, attacking midfield space. He turned each time excellently and moved the ball on well. We saw Shankland for Hearts yesterday play as a withdrawn centre forward and perhaps Yengi could do something similar for us. Given Martindale often doesn't want Anderson at centre forward and rarely sees Nouble as an option there, my hope now is for Yengi to replace Guthrie in the position. 

Edit: Forgot Hamilton. Excellent performance.

Yep, then got injured when he fouled Forrest, he's slow enough without limping about not fully fit, should subbed him then. In fairness though, if Montano had held the line we wouldn't have conceded the first goal, Vargas would've been offside. When we haven't much pace we need to be organized so players can't get in behind us so easily. I'm not convinced Montano should be playing as a LCB in a back 3 ahead of a natural CB. Parkes looked decent though, if we can keep him fit i'd have him starting as first choice there.

Thought Guthrie was one of our better players yesterday, pressing defenders and winning balls, shame his goal didn't count, he deserved a goal for effort, and getting a few headers in the box too. With Yengi looking like a more exuberant Nouble, able to take the ball and get us up the pitch, i'm hoping Anderson can start scoring goals and work his way back into the starting line up,. but i still think Guthrie will be useful.