Livingston - all the threads merged

[mozam76]

18 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Read an article about Fitzwater, and him suffering from a stomach/bowel problem that last season, going onto when he moved down South, and being diagnosed down there, which would explain how his form must've been affected. He was going to the toilet about 30 times a day and felt embarrassed, so tried hiding it.

Had a quick google check, here it is, Colitis. Jack Fitzwater on colitis diagnosis: 'I was embarrassed going to the toilet 30 times a day' - BBC Sport

Must've been energy sapping as well as a mental strain on him.

 

10 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Wow. That explains a whole lot. That condition has a gradul onset where the sufferer keeps adapting to their worsening symptoms and therefore can be unaware how bad things are getting. Especially if someone is distracted by the constant routine of professional football. I can see why diagnosis came so late for him. 

That completely reframes his latter time at Livi.

I read about this a few weeks ago. It's a subject close to my heart as I suffer from Crohns, and have done since I was 7.

Wonderful advances in medicine mean that invasive surgery isn't the go to treatment option any more (too late for me sadly), but there isn't a bona fide cure for either Colitis or Crohns, nor do they know for definite how people come to suffer from it.

Knowing how the disease has impacted on my life means that I can categorically say that, for me, Jack Fitzwater is a genuine Livi Legend. He's been through hell.

Edited March 11 by mozam76

[CharlieWhisky]

The latest confirmation statement they have not released yet will show Carolyn Sumner with 70% of the shares, I imagine, as has been claimed in the press in the past.

[Roger the cabin boy]

23 minutes ago, CharlieWhisky said:

The latest confirmation statement they have not released yet will show Carolyn Sumner with 70% of the shares, I imagine, as has been claimed in the press in the past.

Don’t see why they’d update it again considering the attached screenshot showing updated shareholding status.

[East Calder Lion]

5 hours ago, mozam76 said:

 

I read about this a few weeks ago. It's a subject close to my heart as I suffer from Crohns, and have done since I was 7.

Wonderful advances in medicine mean that invasive surgery isn't the go to treatment option any more (too late for me sadly), but there isn't a bona fide cure for either Colitis or Crohns, nor do they know for definite how people come to suffer from it.

Knowing how the disease has impacted on my life means that I can categorically say that, for me, Jack Fitzwater is a bona fide Livi Legend. He's been through hell.

Fitzwater is definitely a big miss for us. We haven't got anywhere near replacing him in lots of ways.

[Freedom Farter]

Fitzwater's literal replacement on the park was going to be Obileye, moving across from left centre back to right centre back. His replacement in the squad, in terms of age range and talent, was going to be Robbie Deas, who'd have come in to play left centre back. In another sliding doors moment, Killie outbid us for that player and they've gone on to have the season they're having while we're now where we are. Losing out on Deas and not finding a different target with whom to replace Fitzwater will've factored into Martindale's decision to move from two centre backs to three. Personally, I thought Boyes did enough last season to show he could've partnered Obileye but he hadn't convinced Martindale. So we waited until the summer to see which unattached centre backs became available. That means taking more of a gamble on a player as they're not a long term target who's been thoroughly scouted. 

[ATLIS]

2 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Fitzwater's literal replacement on the park was going to be Obileye, moving across from left centre back to right centre back. His replacement in the squad, in terms of age range and talent, was going to be Robbie Deas, who'd have come in to play left centre back. In another sliding doors moment, Killie outbid us for that player and they've gone on to have the season they're having while we're now where we are. Losing out on Deas and not finding a different target with whom to replace Fitzwater will've factored into Martindale's decision to move from two centre backs to three. Personally, I thought Boyes did enough last season to show he could've partnered Obileye but he hadn't convinced Martindale. So we waited until the summer to see which unattached centre backs became available. That means taking more of a gamble on a player as they're not a long term target who's been thoroughly scouted. 

IMO, if not for the apparent dressing room clash, Luiyi De Lucas would've been a nailed on starter for us. 

[RandomGuy.]

I think half the league was after Deas tbf. If rumours are true Killie are paying him quite a lot.

[Livi]

If Ward and Martindale don't have any real money invested in Livingston FC then it begs the question why they are doing everything possible to hold onto a club thats running at a loss? 
 

Why is the press not asking the hard questions around ownership of the club? 

[mozam76]

30 minutes ago, Livi said:

If Ward and Martindale don't have any real money invested in Livingston FC then it begs the question why they are doing everything possible to hold onto a club thats running at a loss? 
 

Why is the press not asking the hard questions around ownership of the club? 

Depends who you mean by the press I suppose. If you mean the written press, our local paper is in its final throes, the national dailys are the same (and constantly in thrall to bigger clubs). Social outlets like PLZ and that kind of guff are not interested in behind the scenes intricacies. 
 

 

[Livi]

8 hours ago, mozam76 said:

Depends who you mean by the press I suppose. If you mean the written press, our local paper is in its final throes, the national dailys are the same (and constantly in thrall to bigger clubs). Social outlets like PLZ and that kind of guff are not interested in behind the scenes intricacies. 
 

 

 

If this was the top clubs in Scotland it would be all over the sports media.

Not that long ago you had BBC Sportsound hinting of troubles like the knew what it was but no really wanting to report on it .

Still intrigued though why the 2 want to hang onto something thats losing money now and if the club goes down it will become more acute given the prize money on offer in the championship.

Edited March 13 by Livi

[RandomGuy.]

9 hours ago, mozam76 said:

Depends who you mean by the press I suppose. If you mean the written press, our local paper is in its final throes, the national dailys are the same (and constantly in thrall to bigger clubs). Social outlets like PLZ and that kind of guff are not interested in behind the scenes intricacies. 

Even 20 years ago the media had no interest in doing actual journalism. See the "Gretna fairytale" as a prime example.

Some of them seemed genuinely shocked when they went bust.

[mozam76]

2 hours ago, Livi said:

If this was the top clubs in Scotland it would be all over the sports media.

Not that long ago you had BBC Sportsound hinting of troubles like the knew what it was but no really wanting to report on it .

Still intrigued though why the 2 want to hang onto something thats losing money now and if the club goes down it will become more acute given the prize money on offer in the championship.

It's not the top clubs though, is it. If my granny had baws etc. There are a few mainstream journalists (Tom English on Sportsound, Stephen McGowan at the Daily Heil) who have made mention of our troubles, but those mentions have either been sensationalist comments or regurgitation of what is already out there. McGowan took the statement from the club following Rankine's court appearance, added a couple of forthcoming court dates, threw in no quotes from anyone and put out a piece which went over two pages. 

I'm definitely with you though in wondering what the end games is for Hogarth/Rankine. 

1 hour ago, RandomGuy. said:

Even 20 years ago the media had no interest in doing actual journalism. See the "Gretna fairytale" as a prime example.

Some of them seemed genuinely shocked when they went bust.

[crispy]

4 hours ago, Livi said:

If this was the top clubs in Scotland it would be all over the sports media.

Not that long ago you had BBC Sportsound hinting of troubles like the knew what it was but no really wanting to report on it .

Still intrigued though why the 2 want to hang onto something thats losing money now and if the club goes down it will become more acute given the prize money on offer in the championship.

I guess the assumption here is that they view it as an investment and are looking for a return? I cant recall  any related quotes directly from either of them but if not then I could see why they’d hang around.

I’ve heard it said that they you don’t get involved in owning a football club to make money (indeed it can make you rather unpopular among supporters).

edit: and Livi are surely the least attractive club to any one looking to make a buck! I’d be questioning any business folk seeing us as an attractive project prospect!

Edited March 13 by crispy

[CharlieWhisky]

9 minutes ago, crispy said:

I guess the assumption here is that they view it as an investment and are looking for a return? I cant recall  any related quotes directly from either of them but if not then I could see why they’d hang around.

I’ve heard it said that they you don’t get involved in owning a football club to make money (indeed it can make you rather unpopular among supporters).

edit: and Livi are surely the least attractive club to any one looking to make a buck! I’d be questioning any business folk seeing us as an attractive project prospect!

Why would Ward and Martindale “view it as an investment”? They haven’t invested anything and they don’t own anything, Martindale is an employee and Ward is a volunteer director.

[Durnford]

3 hours ago, mozam76 said:

I'm definitely with you though in wondering what the end games is for Hogarth/Rankine. 

Pretty clear its not with the best interest of the club or the fans though.

[LIVIFOREVER]

4 hours ago, mozam76 said:

It's not the top clubs though, is it. If my granny had baws etc. There are a few mainstream journalists (Tom English on Sportsound, Stephen McGowan at the Daily Heil) who have made mention of our troubles, but those mentions have either been sensationalist comments or regurgitation of what is already out there. McGowan took the statement from the club following Rankine's court appearance, added a couple of forthcoming court dates, threw in no quotes from anyone and put out a piece which went over two pages. 

I'm definitely with you though in wondering what the end games is for Hogarth/Rankine. 

Good point though, why question Ward and Martindale's motives all the time, and ignore Hogarth and Sumner/Rankine, the former 2 are at least involved with running the club and have been directly involved during our on field success in the Premiership this past 6 years, Martindale esp. What exactly is Hogarth et al wanting from the club, and plans for the future, they don't want to discuss that, ever. 

[Livi]

3 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Good point though, why question Ward and Martindale's motives all the time, and ignore Hogarth and Sumner/Rankine, the former 2 are at least involved with running the club and have been directly involved during our on field success in the Premiership this past 6 years, Martindale esp. What exactly is Hogarth et al wanting from the club, and plans for the future, they don't want to discuss that, ever. 

Ward and Martindale have no investment in the holding company who own the majority shareholding in Livingston FC. Why do they want to keep control on a loss making football club. I am genuinely intrigued and perplexed.

Hogarth, Sumner, and Wilson hove a shareholding in the holding company so surely they want to protect their shareholding with Rankine in there somewhere as well.

 

[thruthenight]

50 minutes ago, Livi said:

Ward and Martindale have no investment in the holding company who own the majority shareholding in Livingston FC. Why do they want to keep control on a loss making football club. I am genuinely intrigued and perplexed.

Hogarth, Sumner, and Wilson hove a shareholding in the holding company so surely they want to protect their shareholding with Rankine in there somewhere as well.

 

Are you asking why Martindale would want to keep control over the football club when he's not financially responsible for it? Because the value he gets from Livi isn't purely financial. 

I suspect the investment that Rankine, Hogarth and Sumner have is entirely financial

[Roger the cabin boy]

4 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Good point though, why question Ward and Martindale's motives all the time, and ignore Hogarth and Sumner/Rankine, the former 2 are at least involved with running the club and have been directly involved during our on field success in the Premiership this past 6 years, Martindale esp. What exactly is Hogarth et al wanting from the club, and plans for the future, they don't want to discuss that, ever. 

Last time hogarth and rankine were involved (when ward wasn’t) the club was making a healthy profit. 
 

Since Ward has taken over the club stands to have lost over a million pounds since he took the wheel in 2020.

 

it would be interesting to know what the wage bill is like, especially with the budget cuts and to see if any *key* staff have taken a cut, of what is probably a very generous salary, to help and not hinder the financial security of the club.

4 hours ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

What exactly is Hogarth et al wanting from the club, and plans for the future, they don't want to discuss that, ever. 

Well at the moment they seem to have put a halt on the sale of a club to gangsters/money launderers.

 

If you want to know their plans, you could probably ask them? But you won’t.
 

What’s ward’s plan been? To get investment? 400k for a premier football club and a promise to only cover the losses? Not investment at all. 
 

Would you not question where the money has come from given the background of mcilvogue and Mortons rolls? Who tf are Baycup considering they’re a company that was started mere weeks before the sale of the club was announced?

 

6 hours ago, Durnford said:

Pretty clear it’s not with the best interest of the club or the fans though.

How is it clear if they haven’t said what their intentions are? 
 

8 hours ago, crispy said:

and Livi are surely the least attractive club to any one looking to make a buck! I’d be questioning any business folk seeing us as an attractive project prospect!

They’re in the premiership which makes it valuable (albeit at the bottom just now) but Hogarth, Sumner, Wilson all put money into the club when the team was in the lower leagues… so they’ve picked a no bad horse if you look at it in the long term.

 

a couple years in the premier league, talks of looking for investment and coincidentally you have John Ward/opcco refusing to recognise the shares that are in Carolyn Summer’s name? Hmmm good timing.

 

 

Edited March 13 by Roger the cabin boy

[The Wrong Car]

I agree with the general points regarding McIlvogue, as he doesn’t seem to have much presence

However it’s nonsense to suggest Hogarth and Rankine are somehow good for the club. The former has been mentioned in Judge’s Comments as someone who’s happy to cut checks to himself from club accounts with little warning. The latter, even if you ignore the alleged double/triple counting of loans, is well known across Scottish Football as a fairly disruptive silent shareholder.

Expecting fans to ask Hogarth directly is nonsense as well, he’s more than capable of clarifying his plans publicly.

Edited March 13 by The Wrong Car