LIVIFOREVER Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Livi said: I agree there is a lot more dissent now than there has been. Martindale still has his supporters though It needs collective voices individual voices won't be enough to put pressure on for the changes that are needed. What are they then, seriously, i'm genuinely interested in having an informative exchange. Is it just a simple punt Martindale and oust Ward, or selling the club to a new owner, because i'm not sure what the guys with the majority shares will do if/when they are in charge. I'd love for us to get some sort of stability, and away from court cases and internal turmoil, i really think with the parachute payment and no in fighting we'd have a reasonable chance of getting top 4 for a shot at the promotion play offs. A lot also depends on appointing the right manager. With the current state of affairs carrying on into next season though, i just fear more of the same. Edited May 16 by LIVIFOREVER 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 1 hour ago, LIVIFOREVER said: What are they then, seriously, i'm genuinely interested in having an informative exchange. Is it just a simple punt Martindale and oust Ward, or selling the club to a new owner, because i'm not sure what the guys with the majority shares will do if/when they are in charge. I'd love for us to get some sort of stability, and away from court cases and internal turmoil, i really think with the parachute payment and no in fighting we'd have a reasonable chance of getting top 4 for a shot at the promotion play offs. A lot also depends on appointing the right manager. With the current state of affairs carrying on into next season though, i just fear more of the same. There are multiple issues but for me there is a total lack of governance at Livi FC at board level. Oppco6 - pre January 2024 Ward and Cullen were directors (not shareholders) of the company. As I understand it Hogarth had 30% shareholding and Robert Wilson had 70% shareholding. Of Wilsons 70% shareholding 40% of this was allegedly Caroline Sumners (there was some form of agreement in place here that shareholding could be recalled at any time via a formal process) I think this is disputed by some parties and this one of the court cases in play. As i understand it. Ward and Martindake (later not a shareholder nor a director) were using Wilson's shareholding in Oppco6 to control decision making. Its further complicated in that Wilson allegedly gave 30% of his shareholding to Burskens under a POA arrangement but i understand that's being challenged by Wards, Wilson, et, al. This became an issue when allegedly Ward and Burskens fell out. If all of the above is anywhere close to being the position then you have to ask why Martindale is running the show abd has so much power. People can have a go at Hogarth but he has 30% shareholding in Oppco6. Thats not disputed by any party as far as i am aware. Another key fact for me is Hogarth was a Livingston FC season ticket holder from the Keane days. Martindale, Ward, Burskens seemed to have arrived in last 10 or so years. i really can't imagine anyone who feels Martindale should still be the manager given the performance levels of the last 18 months. So its not an easy landscape to navigate to a clear path as to the next steps maybe thats been deliberate. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wrong Car Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, Livi said: Martindale still has his supporters though 22 minutes ago, Livi said: i really can't imagine anyone who feels Martindale should still be the manager given the performance levels of the last 18 months. The duality of Livi fans 23 minutes ago, Livi said: There are multiple issues but for me there is a total lack of governance at Livi FC at board level. Oppco6 - pre January 2024 Ward and Cullen were directors (not shareholders) of the company. As I understand it Hogarth had 30% shareholding and Robert Wilson had 70% shareholding. Of Wilsons 70% shareholding 40% of this was allegedly Caroline Sumners (there was some form of agreement in place here that shareholding could be recalled at any time via a formal process) I think this is disputed by some parties and this one of the court cases in play. As i understand it. Ward and Martindake (later not a shareholder nor a director) were using Wilson's shareholding in Oppco6 to control decision making. Its further complicated in that Wilson allegedly gave 30% of his shareholding to Burskens under a POA arrangement but i understand that's being challenged by Wards, Wilson, et, al. This became an issue when allegedly Ward and Burskens fell out. If all of the above is anywhere close to being the position then you have to ask why Martindale is running the show abd has so much power. People can have a go at Hogarth but he has 30% shareholding in Oppco6. Thats not disputed by any party as far as i am aware. Another key fact for me is Hogarth was a Livingston FC season ticket holder from the Keane days. Martindale, Ward, Burskens seemed to have arrived in last 10 or so years. i really can't imagine anyone who feels Martindale should still be the manager given the performance levels of the last 18 months. So its not an easy landscape to navigate to a clear path as to the next steps maybe thats been deliberate. I agree with much of this however I'm reluctant to put Ward alongside Beurkens. Ward's companies supported the club since 2009, whereas Beuskens is a more recent arrival and has a history of claiming money that isn't his and embellishing his remit. I'm not trying to excuse the present mess, however I'd consider Beuskens (and McIlvogue) to be the most likely to pull a fast one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 2 hours ago, The Wrong Car said: The duality of Livi fans I agree with much of this however I'm reluctant to put Ward alongside Beurkens. Ward's companies supported the club since 2009, whereas Beuskens is a more recent arrival and has a history of claiming money that isn't his and embellishing his remit. I'm not trying to excuse the present mess, however I'd consider Beuskens (and McIlvogue) to be the most likely to pull a fast one. For the record Burskens IMO should never have been anywhere near the club in any circumstance. Ward seems to have been in and out the club since 2009 in various capacities. His last few years with no apparent £££'s investment and the club losses under his stewardship as CEO and volunteer chairmanship i think its time for him to go. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freedom Farter Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 3 hours ago, Livi said: People can have a go at Hogarth but he has 30% shareholding in Oppco6. Thats not disputed by any party as far as i am aware. Another key fact for me is Hogarth was a Livingston FC season ticket holder from the Keane days. Martindale, Ward, Burskens seemed to have arrived in last 10 or so years. Hogarth backed and seemingly still does back Ged Nixon. The club was managed very poorly by Nixon, the nadir being his payment of undeclared bonuses to players which resulted in a points deduction as punishment. Nixon then sued the club after he left which almost brought on a third administration, as claimed by Rankine. Hogarth's commitment is not in doubt, his competence is. Someone being a fan doesn't mean they make good decisions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 16 Share Posted May 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said: Hogarth backed and seemingly still does back Ged Nixon. The club was managed very poorly by Nixon, the nadir being his payment of undeclared bonuses to players which resulted in a points deduction as punishment. Nixon then sued the club after he left which almost brought on a third administration, as claimed by Rankine. Hogarth's commitment is not in doubt, his competence is. Someone being a fan doesn't mean they make good decisions. I genuinely don't know if Hogarth backs Nixon or not. My substantive point around Hogarth was he is a legitimate shareholder of Oppco6 an previously a long standing season ticket holder. Rankine has a lot to answer for IMO and in one way or another again IMO has caused alot of what we have today in terms of the fractions at the club. He seems to be the one who has brought them all to Livi FC Personally i am not very pro Nixon. Edited May 16 by Livi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LogieLivi Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 Interesting article. Martindale will leave if the club lose the court case. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgrwlz5ne0ko 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIVIFOREVER Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 3 minutes ago, LogieLivi said: Interesting article. Martindale will leave if the club lose the court case. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgrwlz5ne0ko Think it was pretty much a given that if they lose he'd be gone, as Ward wouldn't still be in charge, as long as Ward is there Martindale will be too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 (edited) 19 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said: Think it was pretty much a given that if they lose he'd be gone, as Ward wouldn't still be in charge, as long as Ward is there Martindale will be too. I think what this article confirms that Ward and Martindale are a team in this together. If one goes the other goes also based on my posts above in terms of ownership of Oppco6 (majority shareholder in Livi FC) then IMO from what you can see and also hear from whats been said in court. The big question is was Livi FC sold without the agreement of the shareholders of Oppco6 and for me that is the crux of the legal case thats ongoing. Within that there is also wrangling as to the shareholding of Oppco6. So if it was Ward and Martindale that sold the club then one is neither is a director or a shareholder and the other is only a director not a shareholder of the holding company. What will be crucial is how Wilson's shareholding in Oppco6 was used in that decision making process and whether he had 70% or 30% Oppco6 shareholding. Edited May 17 by Livi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 5 hours ago, LogieLivi said: Interesting article. Martindale will leave if the club lose the court case. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/articles/cgrwlz5ne0ko Yeah feel like that one was a given, especially when he's got a side picked out on the battle. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlieWhisky Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 I think it’s actually quite impressive that Hogarth and co have stayed quiet through all this. If they think someone’s robbed their business from under their nose, then those same people keep boasting in the press about who the ‘new owner’ is, and saying it’s you causing all the problems, it must be quite grating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 1 hour ago, CharlieWhisky said: I think it’s actually quite impressive that Hogarth and co have stayed quiet through all this. If they think someone’s robbed their business from under their nose, then those same people keep boasting in the press about who the ‘new owner’ is, and saying it’s you causing all the problems, it must be quite grating. What do you mean? It's been all over this forum ffs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glen Scotia Posted May 18 Share Posted May 18 Walked passed your gaffer today in Edinburgh, he was speaking to a bearded guy and his words were "I'll offload him" Read in to that what you will 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Assume Martindale has decided there will be no overpriced POTY this year for the club? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy.1995 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 There will be no POTY awards this season.Confirmed by the club.Apperently would cost too much to stage.Anyone surprised?.We move on. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ATLIS Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 3 minutes ago, Troy.1995 said: There will be no POTY awards this season.Confirmed by the club.Apperently would cost too much to stage.Anyone surprised?.We move on. After the way the season has gone, I think it's the right call (budget related or not). Let the players have a closed door thing to themselves, keep it low key, move on and prepare for next season. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 3 minutes ago, Troy.1995 said: There will be no POTY awards this season.Confirmed by the club.Apperently would cost too much to stage.Anyone surprised?.We move on. It never cost to much to stage over the years. The cost of a hall a disco and a cheap buffet. Many a great night at a POTY (even previous relegation ones) having a drink and a laugh with fellow supporters and a wee appearance of some players. Christ even in the Massone days we had a POTY The club has priced many ordinary fans out of a POTY over recent times with its over zealous events and 3 course dinners and speakers. what a sad state we're in right now no official supporters clubs, very little supporters busses to away games, no POTY, whats next? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 5 minutes ago, ATLIS said: After the way the season has gone, I think it's the right call (budget related or not). Let the players have a closed door thing to themselves, keep it low key, move on and prepare for next season. We'll agree to disagree (again) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troy.1995 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 2 minutes ago, Livi said: It never cost to much to stage over the years. The cost of a hall a disco and a cheap buffet. Many a great night at a POTY (even previous relegation ones) having a drink and a laugh with fellow supporters and a wee appearance of some players. Christ even in the Massone days we had a POTY The club has priced many ordinary fans out of a POTY over recent times with its over zealous events and 3 course dinners and speakers. what a sad state we're in right now no official supporters clubs, very little supporters busses to away games, no POTY, whats next? Guess its your opinion and your entitled to it tbf.The club is toxic atm from top to bottom imo.A transitional period is essential and will only be helped once all these court cases which wether you believe it or not has damaged the club,both on and off the field.Outwith this toxic forum for the last 8 months or so,your average Livi fan delusional or not haven't a clue whats going on.Its disgraceful that these proceedings have gone on so long and have put investors and many fans alike off helping us.Im not the only one who has these views. Come to games and listen to supporters.Theyl back me up,guaranteed!!!. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Livi Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 1 minute ago, Troy.1995 said: Guess its your opinion and your entitled to it tbf.The club is toxic atm from top to bottom imo.A transitional period is essential and will only be helped once all these court cases which wether you believe it or not has damaged the club,both on and off the field.Outwith this toxic forum for the last 8 months or so,your average Livi fan delusional or not haven't a clue whats going on.Its disgraceful that these proceedings have gone on so long and have put investors and many fans alike off helping us.Im not the only one who has these views. Come to games and listen to supporters.Theyl back me up,guaranteed!!!. There is no doubt its toxic but even more important that the fans stick together. It's tough knowing the club is ploughing £££'s into legal cases rather than the playing budget. Did you see Martindale's interview on BBC Scotland post match? In with the bricks thats dangerous position for any club. I think we agree on many points 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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