Livingston - all the threads merged

[jimbo]

He's deluded.

[EdinburghLivi]

Yep, they must be gagging at the bit for a new manager by now. I would imagine all eyes will be turning north east now that a chap from Cowdenbeath "who might have millions of pounds" is being connected with Livingston.

There will now be endless recommendations for the Italian to leave (even from his recent backers) because they can smell fresh money in the air, and they'll already be convinced that a new chap is on his way to pay all the debts off and be everyone's bestest pal.

Hell, he'll even be called "Mr" (or by his christian name) for as long as he spends money on the club. He just better do his financial homework very thoroughly indeed.

You know, I've read and enjoyed some of your posts recently but this just makes you look like you have an agenda against the club's supporters (as did AND180Y's on the last page). The guy has said in the record article that he realises that the club shouldn't be top-6 SPL but can be sustained in the first division. That indicates he's not going to speculate to accumulate as the other owners in the past have done which completely diminishes your point about Livi fans simply being happy-clappers who get excited over someone with cash to spend.

He may have cash but the reason that the supporters of Massone may now want McDougall is the fact that he is looking at stability for the club after a year of shite. The morons supporting Massone shouldn't be in the first place but the fact that they are now being offered another alternative to Massone is the reason why they may change their minds on him.

Just been anounced on radio Scotland sports news.

A,M. wants 10 million for livi.

Err.. No, he doesn't. It was a hypothetical amount that he used meaning that he would accept because it's silly money.

[banjo player]

You know, I've read and enjoyed some of your posts recently but this just makes you look like you have an agenda against the club's supporters (as did AND180Y's on the last page). The guy has said in the record article that he realises that the club shouldn't be top-6 SPL but can be sustained in the first division. That indicates he's not going to speculate to accumulate as the other owners in the past have done which completely diminishes your point about Livi fans simply being happy-clappers who get excited over someone with cash to spend.

He may have cash but the reason that the supporters of Massone may now want McDougall is the fact that he is looking at stability for the club after a year of shite. The morons supporting Massone shouldn't be in the first place but the fact that they are now being offered another alternative to Massone is the reason why they may change their minds on him.

Err.. No, he doesn't. It was a hypothetical amount that he used meaning that he would accept because it's silly money.

How do you think Duncan and several others feel after weeks of sensible comment and helpful advice for the more gifted Livi supporters to take back to the Livi Lions forum, when that advice is not heeded by the Livi Lemmings. It's getting boring and for my part is one of the reasons that cynicism is taking over.

[AND180Y]

(as did AND180Y's on the last page).

B)

[EdinburghLivi]

How do you think Duncan and several others feel after weeks of sensible comment and helpful advice for the more gifted Livi supporters to take back to the Livi Lions forum, when that advice is not heeded by the Livi Lemmings. It's getting boring and for my part is one of the reasons that cynicism is taking over.

They seem to be tarring the whole support though, that's my point. Just because some idiots are so blind, why should rest of the fans be stereotyped as such?

It just makes the "more gifted Livi supporters" more frustrated and less likely to listen to their advice. There are a lot of people who dislike our club, it's quite clear. If Duncan etc. begins to act like he did with that post he'll be tarred as one of them when I don't think he is (apart from the Celtic jibes that were prominent before this whole situation came to light).

[jimbo]

You're right banjo player, Duncan's comments have been helpful but he's still not keen on Livi (it's the Celtic connection ken ). Nothing of course like Kingfaethesooth who's walking around these days positively delirious. I have an affection for KFTS though. It's always a comfort to know where you stand with someone. None of this two faced stuff. No siree!

[Chuckinho]

Before I spend 10 million, I'd like to know where the accounts are at - my suspicion is things aren't so great.

If Livi fans don't mobilise in some way shape of form, the hsitory books will judge them by their apathy or complicity surely.

[Fife Saint]

If Livi fans don't mobilise in some way shape of form, the hsitory books will judge them by their apathy or complicity surely.

History probably won't bother it's arse.

[Charles Darwin Esq]

History probably won't bother it's arse.

Can you feel the love?

[EdinburghLivi]

History probably won't bother it's arse.

History had the courtesy to mark down our cup win, I'm sure it will give us the privilege again. How's that blank page going for you guys?

[Fife Saint]

Farcical as it is you have a point.

[Muggy]

History had the courtesy to mark down our cup win, I'm sure it will give us the privilege again. How's that blank page going for you guys?

[Guest]

They seem to be tarring the whole support though, that's my point. Just because some idiots are so blind, why should rest of the fans be stereotyped as such?

It just makes the "more gifted Livi supporters" more frustrated and less likely to listen to their advice. There are a lot of people who dislike our club, it's quite clear. If Duncan etc. begins to act like he did with that post he'll be tarred as one of them when I don't think he is (apart from the Celtic jibes that were prominent before this whole situation came to light).

Well I Guess I am biased, and also, maybe I'm not. As a matter of disclosure, I lost several thousand pounds during the last bout of administration, so seeing the club walk away scot free while other clubs haven't has always been a significant annoyance.

The Celtic thing..............very much the club's own making, and it's pretty hard to refute Livingston's tendencies towards the east end of Glasgow. It's hard to think of a time when you haven't had a significant ex Celtic influence at the club. It has been a link that has always gone beyond pure co-incidence. Even those who rubbish the theory cannot deny the names and faces that have been a part of Livingston since its inception.

As I said back then, in a four person conversation, DK clearly stated that his vision for the club was to be a feeder club for his beloved Celtic. He had wanted the club colours to be amber (gold) and bottle green. The Meadowbank links gave him the amber, but on the advice of others, he had left the secondary colour as black. He had been advised that green may have alienated a chunk of the population, so he let it be.

I understand full well that not all Livingston fans are the same. I wasn't tarring everyone with the same brush.....if that's how it came across, then apologies. However (and it's a real however), the lure of another persons money (while hugely appealing to all footie supporters) does seem to be the opiate of choice down Almondvale way. You can already sense that people's desire to have a say in the club is melting away at the prospect of another rich benefactor. You and few others are probably the exception, but in your home town, I reckon your voice is about to be drowned out in the clamour for "the new guy, his money, a new manager and a fresh start".

Now, as to club value........ Livingston's assets consist of Leigh Griffiths and their league registration.......that's about the sum total of it. Their liabilities amount to a currently indeterminate amount. For anyone to pay anything other than a token amount to take over a club with a net value deeply into the red will be a leap of faith of mammoth proportions.

Edited June 6, 2009 by Guest

[Homer Thompson]

Well I Guess I am biased, and also, maybe I'm not. As a matter of disclosure, I lost several thousand pounds during the last bout of administration, so seeing the club walk away scot free while other clubs haven't has always been a significant annoyance.

The Celtic thing..............very much the club's own making, and it's pretty hard to refute Livingston's tendencies towards the east end of Glasgow. It's hard to think of a time when you haven't had a significant ex Celtic influence at the club. It has been a link that has always gone beyond pure co-incidence. Even those who rubbish the theory cannot deny the names and faces that have been a part of Livingston since its inception.

As I said back then, in a four person conversation, DK clearly stated that his vision for the club was to be a feeder club for his beloved Celtic. He had wanted the club colours to be amber (gold) and bottle green. The Meadowbank links gave him the amber, but on the advice of others, he had left the secondary colour as black. He had been advised that green may have alienated a chunk of the population, so he let it be.

I understand full well that not all Livingston fans are the same. I wasn't tarring everyone with the same brush.....if that's how it came across, then apologies. However (and it's a real however), the lure of another persons money (while hugely appealing to all footie supporters) does seem to be the opiate of choice down Almondvale way. You can already sense that people's desire to have a say in the club is melting away at the prospect of another rich benefactor. You and few others are probably the exception, but in your home town, I reckon your voice is about to be drowned out in the clamour for "the new guy, his money, a new manager and a fresh start".

Now, as to club value........ Livingston's assets consist of Leigh Griffiths and their league registration.......that's about the sum total of it. Their liabilities amount to a currently indeterminate amount. For anyone to pay anything other than a token amount to take over a club with a net value deeply into the red will be a leap of faith of mammoth proportions.

An asset they seem strangely reluctant to cash in on. Cant imagine livies creditors being happy with yet more bids being turned down

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8086441.stm

[Yoss]

An asset they seem strangely reluctant to cash in on. Cant imagine livies creditors being happy with yet more bids being turned down

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8086441.stm

I don't believe a word of it. Massone desperately needs to sell, and like the absurd tale of £300K the other week, this is his attempt to stimulate the market.

[Guest]

A recent post on livilions reproduced in full with my highlights for any Livi fans who drop by...

What happens in West Lothian when you don the yellow and black? Do you get a compulsory lobotomy?

I reckon this is little more than a bit of inverted ethics. It's dead easy to be honest and all embracing in your policy of "paying everyone what they owe" when they aren't the ones who have to actually pay it. We're all well capable of being magnanimous with other people's money.

That the chap is happy for the new owner to have total control is indeed fine, because he expects something in exchange for it. He expects an owner to stump up for debtors and for a competitive team, and in exchange, he (the punter) will swear his allegiance to the new guy for as long as nothing goes wrong.

Livingston were built on the premis of "something for nothing". There is an element that will indeed be happy to accept their place in the world as a middle ranking first division side. Unfortunately, the numbers who will be happy to do so might not be enough to sustain a middle ranking first division side. If the new owner isn't prepared to subsidise the gap between what the people will pay for and what those who actually pay expect in return, then he will quickly become tainted as "lacking ambition for the club".

The majority of Livingston's prospective support have not left their expectation of "something for nothing" behind them. A club being run for the first time in it's brief history in a manner which is honest and above board will satisfy some (and hats off to them), but it won't be enough for a significant bunch of others. They see that Scottish football is still prepared to reward overspending and unethical behaviour..........and its the rewards these people want to bask in, not some new found business ethics.

[LLD]

I agree with much of what you say Duncan but the one thing to remember is that Livingston supporters have never run Livingston FC and have therefore never had any real say in the club's fiscal policies.

As such it is difficult to apportion blame to the supporters. It's also rather unfair IMHO to have a go at them for expecting white knights to come along because many of them simply do not know better.

I'll admit to not being terribly intuitive when it came to the club finances in the Keane era, then came administation in which I was a loser and for me that was a wake up call.

I may be in the minority but I desperately want a club run within its means and preferably without any outside sugar daddy type figure. There are others, so do not assume that all Livi supporters want to rely on a rich man's benevolence.

I can appreciate from some fellow supporters point of view that a club run on these lines is very much a step into the unknown and that's possibly why the Trust aren't getting the support they might expect at other clubs, until the worst happens it will be difficult to change that.

If / when the club plunge into administration then I would hope for a wake up call to register with the majority of doubters. If it doesn't we are finished, simple as that.

[Guest]

I agree with much of what you say Duncan but the one thing to remember is that Livingston supporters have never run Livingston FC and have therefore never had any real say in the club's fiscal policies.

As such it is difficult to apportion blame to the supporters. It's also rather unfair IMHO to have a go at them for expecting white knights to come along because many of them simply do not know better.

I'll admit to not being terribly intuitive when it came to the club finances in the Keane era, then came administation in which I was a loser and for me that was a wake up call.

I may be in the minority but I desperately want a club run within its means and preferably without any outside sugar daddy type figure. There are others, so do not assume that all Livi supporters want to rely on a rich man's benevolence.

I can appreciate from some fellow supporters point of view that a club run on these lines is very much a step into the unknown and that's possibly why the Trust aren't getting the support they might expect at other clubs, until the worst happens it will be difficult to change that.

If / when the club plunge into administration then I would hope for a wake up call to register with the majority of doubters. If it doesn't we are finished, simple as that.

LLD, no quibbles with any of that. When you have real ownership in something, you find pride and a sense of worth in so many ways that can be difficult to envisage prior to the event. I bet you anything you like that the people deeply involved in an EoS Gretna are far happier than they were when they sat back and watched them shoot up through the leagues on the back of the deceased chap's cash. I think there are many supporters of many clubs who will never experience the buzz of that kind of involvement.

I'm struggling to grasp what it is about Livingston's Trust that has made them a subject of such vilification. Is it simply a personality thing, or is it propoganda or just bad PR? On the single fundamental premis alone that the members of a Trust run club cannot screw over the club for personal financial gain, what is it that is causing such resentment?

Edited June 6, 2009 by Guest

[MCL]

I'm struggling to grasp what it is about Livingston's Trust that has made them a subject of such vilification. Is it simply a personality thing, or is it propoganda or just bad PR? On the single fundamental premis alone that the members of a Trust run club cannot screw over the club for personal financial gain, what is it that is causing such resentment?

For me it goes back to the very beginning of the "Trust". BrianW was the driving force and had tried to get it going for a year or so before it got started. He was the first chairman but once things settled down the rest of them ganged up on him to force him out. The egos had taken over and the clique has been in place ever since.

He was so sickened by it all that he stopped going to the games. Before that he was a regular home and away and helped with the running of the OL supporter's team too.

[Guest]

An asset they seem strangely reluctant to cash in on. Cant imagine livies creditors being happy with yet more bids being turned down

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/t...ton/8086441.stm

The now common place offer of "200,000" which usually means 75k up front, and 75k at the end of year one and another 50k at the end of year two is no good to the Italian. That would inevitably mean that the cash might fall into the hands of the club. He will want a one time cash deal up front. No scheduled payments. He'll want it done as quietly as possible too.