Livingston - all the threads merged

[jimbo]

Well if nothing else the whole soap opera has brightened up a dull close season. If I dont at it all I'll just

I know most fans resent the club because of the Meadowbank thing and keane spending what he didn't have but at the end of the day I gave my heart to Livi when they were in the 3rd division and all this is a helluva lot to bear. i'm still hanging on in there though till the bitter end.

[EdinburghLivi]

Meanwhile on Livi Lions the rumour is that if Massone stays he plans to appoint the clubs American goalkeeping coach as the new manager. We can only assume that Livingston's youth team will actually be taking to the park. there are also dire predictions of stalling legal action by Massone in the event of administration, which will drag this situation on for months to come. Quite why he'd bother to stall is anyone's guess. Now that his "plan" to buy the stadium has been exposed as sheer fantasy, and Griffiths having been sold, there would seem to be no financial incentive whatever for him to stay.

Contrary to our troubles off the park, we currently have at least 15 first team players signed for next season.

Edited June 28, 2009 by EdinburghLivi

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Contrary to our troubles off the park, we currently have at least 15 first team players signed for next season.

Not if they are not paid, you don't. All you have is a collection of potential claims for breach of contract and a lot of constructive dismissal cases.

Edited June 28, 2009 by penelope pitstop

[EdinburghLivi]

Of course, you are correct. However, as it stands and unless the players take action, we do have a fairly decent squad.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Contrary to our troubles off the park, we currently have at least 15 first team players signed for next season.

Have they been paid recently?

If not, I'd suggest that the "contracts" that they have signed are barely worth the A4 they're printed on. With one newspaper reporting that the guys have been told not to bother reporting tomorrow for the scheduled start of pre season training (there being no coaching staff), I'm not really sure how many of those 15 will report if Livi's pre season ever actually gets going.

If Livi go into admin the players will probably be the first out the door, and join the clubs long list of creditors.

[EdinburghLivi]

We do of course also have the Murphy chap and the fitness coach who could take training if it's on...

[Ivo den Bieman]

To be honest all Massone has yet to do to complete the set of "megalomaniac bonkers chairman" attributes is to appoint himself manager and take training.

[HibeeJibee]

If not, I'd suggest that the "contracts" that they have signed are barely worth the A4 they're printed on.

Which is probably the reverse side of last year's contract after the stationers weren't paid ...

[Chuckinho]

I'm no expert on contract law, but a contract is an agreement between two parties, so if AM hasn't been paying people, it is he/the club who have been breaching the contract. AS scuh I can't see much reason why any player couldn't just walk away.

As far as fielding a side, how many do they need? I am sure it is at least 7 or 8 to not have to forfeit, though going through a season with a squad of 15 sounds a bit scary

[HibeeJibee]

You are right Chuckinho; and aside from the core legal aspects inshrined in Scots Law, players do have rights within football regulations/rules (under the SFA) and/or can appeal to the leagues own Management Committee (i.e. the SFL). Both these could result in them being free to find their own club, if necessary by the player's registration being cancelled. After a review a few years ago, the players can still sign for a new club even if released outside of transfer window (i.e. after August).

[southview]

Well I suppose there will be some sort of indication as to what the future for Livi will be when we get to Tuesday and see how the council react to their non-payment of rent.

I still feel the council won't do anything that jeopardises senior football in the town. It's clear from past reports that this issue is important to them.

It won't surprise me in the slightest if Livi come through this long episode and are playing first division football next season even if they do have a bunch of youngsters in their first-team.

[Guest zupa]

I doubt if Dundee have actually physically paid money yet for a guy signed on Friday. Depends what they've agreed of course but they certainly wouldn't have paid before Griffiths signed a contract and that took place Friday afternoon.

You are one "clever guy".

[glensburgh]

they've finally caught up on the BEEB

[Cynical Saintee]

The gulliotine's rising.

A shame, really. I never like to see a club go under (Gretna aside).

[Guest]

I guess all of this is still open to going one of three ways.

Liquidation: This isn't as unlikely as people seem to think. The world has had enough of football clubs not paying their debts. There are all sorts of factors that separate those who generate public sympathy and support, and those who don't. The council members who drink from the trough of the football club will be keeping a low profile. Those who are somewhat less concerned have tested the waters of public opinion by making some strongly worded statements. That there is no mass revolt against the council will give them the green light to go and recover (or be seen to be trying to recover) money owed to the public purse by a serial offender.

Administration: This has become football's favourite "get me out of debt" bolthole. Again, there is some hardening of opinion and practice. A club heading there for the second time in five years will have few friends. It is a far more risky affair than it was last time around. Can easily lead to liquidation.

Re-structure debt and carry on: There has to be something solid in place that gives clear line of sight as to how and when the debts will be paid. Can easily lead to a tailspin into obscurity through falling attendances and revenue threatening the re-structure agreement. This might also bring every crook and comic singer to the flame that is Massone. Birds of a feather etc etc..........

Edited June 29, 2009 by Guest

[Chuckinho]

The main thing that needs to change is the way in which the business is run. It doesn't matter whether they come back from administration or re-structure debt. unless they sort out their business model and live within their means, we will keep having these threads every season.

[Boredandalone]

We do of course also have the Murphy chap and the fitness coach who could take training if it's on...

Murph was a goalkeeper however was also the assistant manager at the Rapids. He also has his UEFA pro licence and was on the same course as Coyle and Hughes etc. I can see no reason why he will come back to Livingston from the States where he is at the moment with his young family including new baby. He's probably glad to have escaped the Livi farce.

[Guest]

The main thing that needs to change is the way in which the business is run. It doesn't matter whether they come back from administration or re-structure debt. unless they sort out their business model and live within their means, we will keep having these threads every season.

It's more than that. Massone is now perceived as being a lying, ethically bankrupt low life..........and to be fair, he has done much to ensure it's a tag that sits comfortably on his shoulders. Regardless of the business model, if Massone is involved in it at all, then it will no longer fly with "investors".

Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. Step up Mr Neil Rankine. Given the perception of Massone, what type of man is it that would get involved with such an individual? Do opposites attract? Not in this case............it's an exception to the rule remember.....

As to "investors".........look at the track record.

Bill Hunter ran up debts, got into bother, bailed out.

Dominic Keane ran up even more debt, got into a lot more bother, and was deposed.

Pearse Flynn. Ran up more debts, got involved in a bit of asset stripping, sold the club and it's debt for a pound.

Angelo Massone: Thought he was the one who was going to profit from the asset stripping til he found at the Flynn had already taken care of business. Only other potential assets were a stadium he hoped to buy cheaply with no strings attached, and move it on making a big profit. it hasn't happened.

Then moved on to what assets the club had.........three saleable players. All now gone. The asset stripping game has run out of road. What to do given there is no assets or money internal to the club?

That's right, get new money in from "investors".

Get other people's money to run the club, pay the flights, pay the townhouse rent, pay the parking tickets, pay the electricity bill, pay the council, pay the myriad other creditors knocking on the door, and pay staff and player salaries. In exchange for that, Massone will offer up a minority share of a business that was worth a quid a year ago, but now has the added spice of massively increased debt, and absolutely no assets.

To top it all off, the club has a reputation that's about as bad as it gets.

Investors? This outfit seek investors? The whole saga has turned into a Monty Python sketch.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Guest

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Somewhere in the heart of this there is a property deal. Exactly what it is is unclear but it is that and only that which is keeping Massone at the club and it was that which drew him to it, and now Rankine, in the first place.

I can only guess that the idea is to buy the freehold from the Council - separate off anything that isn't absolutely essential for the ground and get the Council to agree to release any covenants on it (no doubt on the basis that it is the only way to "save" Livi and pay for its upkeep) and sell it and then pocket the money. Alternatively they may be intending to relocate to a more manageable stadium and sell the whole lot - they would need to convince the Council to release more land to them for a smaller stadium and then release the current land from any covenant obliging football to be played there. A tall order but the Council do seem prepared to bend over backwards and agree to almost anything for anyone who provides a mildly credible chance of saving the Councils face and stopping the whole experiment being a failure. whatever their plan is you can be sure it involves money passing into the pockets of Massone and Rankine and is not anything for the long term benefit of the club

Massone's problem is that he has run out of cash to keep the club going until he can complete the property deal - so he had got Rankine interested. However neither of them want to pour money into Livi to keep it going long enough to enable them to buy the ground so what they are now after is some mugs who will buy the club while they buy the freehold of the ground and make the real money. Is anyone that gullible. I rather doubt it these days.

Edited June 29, 2009 by penelope pitstop

[Guest]

Somewhere in the heart of this there is a property deal. Exactly what it is is unclear but it is that and only that which is keeping Massone at the club and it was that which drew him to it, and now Rankine, in the first place.

I can only guess that the idea is to buy the freehold from the Council - separate off anything that isn't absolutely essential for the ground and get the Council to agree to release any covenants on it (no doubt on the basis that it is the only way to "save" Livi and pay for its upkeep) and sell it and then pocket the money. Alternatively they may be intending to relocate to a more manageable stadium and sell the whole lot - they would need to convince the Council to release more land to them for a smaller stadium and then release the current land from any covenant obliging football to be played there. A tall order but the Council do seem prepared to bend over backwards and agree to almost anything for anyone who provides a mildly credible chance of saving the Councils face and stopping the whole experiment being a failure. whatever their plan is you can be sure it involves money passing into the pockets of Massone and Rankine and is not anything for the long term benefit of the club

Massone's problem is that he has run out of cash to keep the club going until he can complete the property deal - so he had got Rankine interested. However neither of them want to pour money into Livi to keep it going long enough to enable them to buy the ground so what they are now after is some mugs who will buy the club while they buy the freehold of the ground and make the real money. Is anyone that gullible. I rather doubt it these days.

It would need an influential insider with the Council to make it happen. Massone and Rankine nned to ride the storm (so far, it's a blustery day) of supporters wrath for what is happening. That a protest or two has taken place at all will surprise them, but the lack of vociferous opposition will give them encouragement to try to stay the course. Of course, there a few major lies still to tell, and a few happenings to be spun into something other than what they actually are, but that stuff is second nature to these people.

Massone's only enemies of note are time itself, and council resistance to give him the ground with no strings attached. If there were to be any waiver of council restrictions, then you can bet your bottom dollar that Massone and Rankine have got themselves their man on the inside.

The Ts & Cs of the stadium sale expires tomorrow. If the council were to lift the restrictions, then they would have to put it on the open market.....not hand it to Massone as a preferred bidder.

Rankine might be committing a little venture capital in this.........but it's all on the basis of getting a return on his investment pretty quickly. As you say, that all depends on how quickly they can get a hold of that stadium restriction free.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Guest