Livingston - all the threads merged

[AND180Y]

My understanding was that the council had passed that stage but I may be wrong!

The council haven't had them in court as yet.

If they had issued a stat demand on July 1st surely it would have been a 7 day demand and hence now expired not with 6 days still to go?

They will be following the lease irritancy process very carefully.

Even if they did present a petition he could ask for an adjournment or defend it on the basis that other creditors might accept a CVA so it is not just and equitable to wind the company up.

[ObserverFromAfar]

A recent post on LiviLIons (http://www.livilions.co.uk/forums/showpost.php?p=297775&postcount=22) from "LFL Trust" confirms hope and dillusion remains high amongst those wanting their dream ticket to take over livi (they've talked with Rankine, but cannot align the 2 sets of philosophies... apparently attitude to youth development is the clincher):

The club has had owners

in recent times

who have done us no favours at all, and we have been through the administration process once already. A second is looming large unless a way can be found to circumvent it.

We are running out of chances with SFL, Council, the other teams in the leagues and more.

The next owners/managers of the club MUST get it right. We have to get the club to a point where it is financially stable and sustainable, living within it's means.

It's not going to be an easy year or two getting to that point,

but it must be done. If we survive this time, we may not get another chance to get it right.

"in recent times...." - more like throughout our 14 year history.

"running out of chance with... and more" - why not say "we have over spent continuosly throughout the 14 years, had the good times funded by the deteriment of local businesses and suppliers"

"It's not going to be an easy year or two getting to that point" - interesting admission that if administration was to be enterest (not a cert) and the Trust preferred owner gets the club, they don't anticipate much pain being anticipated for the "new club" if, whilst others pick up the financial pain and subsidise their good times. So that's acceptable to them?

[Guest]

I really am starting to believe that with the council footing the bill for the safety certificate work, that there is little substance to the councils threats. If this is what they have done, then they clearly have no intention of getting rid of Livingston FC. As already mentioned, a behind closed doors deal will be done to forego rent payments.

If this is what is happening, then the ratepayers of the district really do need to play merry hell, because it can only be about whats good for councillors, and not what is good for the ratepayers.

I think we can all see where this is going.

Massone won't pay the bills. MacDougall won't pay the bills. The Trust have as good as said they don't want the bills to be paid, and see administration as likely, but they along with MacDougall want a CVA to "circumvent administration". Why? Simply because they don't want any football penalties to be applied.

It's funny that these new found ethics of the support and the Trust will only kick in once the creditors get f**k all. It is so effing hypocritical, that there's only once place in Scotland that such thinking could originate..........Livingston.

I don't know what they put in the water up there, but it seems it goes one of two ways.............you are either an out and out liar, or you develop more faces than a town hall clock. Both Massone and whatever replaces him wants to cheat the creditors of what they are due. The support are happy for the creditors to be cheated yet again, but reckon that they can occupy the moral high ground by not lying about it.

Their Trust is now equally keen that the creditors don't get paid because by their amazing logic, this last act of theft will allow them to become an honest and upstanding club.

"Honest mate, we will rob you this last time, then that's it, we're going straight. I know we've said it before, but we mean it this time. Yeah, I know this is pre-meditated, but us not losing 20 points is far more important than your silly wee company getting the £7.2k you are owed."

I thought in the past that Livingston were a bit grubby. If this comes to pass, then they have moved fully into the vile category. Them and their sodding Trust.

Edited July 8, 2009 by Guest

[Guest Wall E]

I don't think that there is a Livingston fan out there that honestly gives a flying feck about football penalties. They can dock Livi 10 points or even relegate them to the bottom og the pile, so what? Who cares? I think that most Livi fans just want the chance to have a team to watch in the future. Just like most fans of most other teams. Glory hunters apart.

[Guest Travelling Man]

I really am starting to believe that with the council footing the bill for the safety certificate work, that there is little substance to the councils threats. If this is what they have done, then they clearly have no intention of getting rid of Livingston FC. As already mentioned, a behind closed doors deal will be done to forego rent payments.

If this is what is happening, then the ratepayers of the district really do need to play merry hell, because it can only be about whats good for councillors, and not what is good for the ratepayers.

I think we can all see where this is going.

Massone won't pay the bills. MacDougall won't pay the bills. The Trust have as good as said they don't want the bills to be paid, and see administration as likely, but they along with MacDougall want a CVA to "circumvent administration". Why? Simply because they don't want any football penalties to be applied.

It's funny that these new found ethics of the support and the Trust will only kick in once the creditors get f**k all. It is so effing hypocritical, that there's only once place in Scotland that such thinking could originate..........Livingston.

I don't know what they put in the water up there, but it seems it goes one of two ways.............you are either an out and out liar, or you develop more faces than a town hall clock. Both Massone and whatever replaces him wants to cheat the creditors of what they are due. The support are happy for the creditors to be cheated yet again, but reckon that they can occupy the moral high ground by not lying about it.

Their Trust is now equally keen that the creditors don't get paid because by their amazing logic, this last act of theft will allow them to become an honest and upstanding club.

"Honest mate, we will rob you this last time, then that's it, we're going straight. I know we've said it before, but we mean it this time. Yeah, I know this is pre-meditated, but us not losing 20 points is far more important than your silly wee company getting the £7.2k you are owed."

I thought in the past that Livingston were a bit grubby. If this comes to pass, then they have moved fully into the vile category. Them and their sodding Trust.

Spot on, Duncan Freemason. Administration is definitely not the way forward: kiss of death for the club maybe. You wouldn't want to be a Cowdenbeath Mk II, with their handful of supporters, would you?

The Trust met with Rankine recently (statement on the Livilions forum) and reading between the lines of that statement I think they probably see the way the wind is blowing and agreed to come into his tent. Can they confirm this? Probably wise move anyway since that is the way to keep First Div. football in Livingston.

[jimbo]

I don't think that there is a Livingston fan out there that honestly gives a flying feck about football penalties. They can dock Livi 10 points or even relegate them to the bottom og the pile, so what? Who cares? I think that most Livi fans just want the chance to have a team to watch in the future. Just like most fans of most other teams. Glory hunters apart.

Spot on. From where I am sitting tonight Livi playing in the third division next year is the equivalent to Rangers supporters of being in the Champions League. As long as there is still a Livi I don't mind where they play.

[Guest]

I don't think that there is a Livingston fan out there that honestly gives a flying feck about football penalties. They can dock Livi 10 points or even relegate them to the bottom og the pile, so what? Who cares? I think that most Livi fans just want the chance to have a team to watch in the future. Just like most fans of most other teams. Glory hunters apart.

But if you can bump creditors by getting a CVA in place that offers them 1p in the pound, you'd take it. If you went into admin and got a 20 point deduction, you'd take that too. The only thing you won't do is pay your debts............again. The advantage you have gained over your peer group over the past decade comes to something like £10 million pounds. If every club behaved in the Livvy way, our professional game would have gone to the wall a long time ago.

Livingston just five years ago made all the promises that they had learned their lesson, and it was all going to change. If you had paid your debts these past three years, your annual budget would have been down by something like £300k a year. You would have been relegated long ago. By not paying your debts, you have lived in a league that you couldn't sustain. Its the same old story all over again, and we have ended up in the same place all over again.

Should Livingston stay in existance, it would have been kind of honourable to say that 100k per season would go to paying back historical debt no matter what it cost the club in terms of sacrifices on the park.

However, the old habits remain strong. No such undertaking will be forthcoming, because other things are more important to you that honouring debt. And it is not as if it were an impossible thing to do since other clubs with debt as large as yours have done the the right thing by their creditors. If its a new start, make this first pledge. Undertake to pay every single penny you owe. I don't think I should hold my breath though.

As ever, Livingston will run to the letter of the law before they'd go near the spirit of what is the right thing to do.

[jimbo]

But if you can bump creditors by getting a CVA in place that offers them 1p in the pound, you'd take it. If you went into admin and got a 20 point deduction, you'd take that too. The only thing you won't do is pay your debts............again. The advantage you have gained over your peer group over the past decade comes to something like £10 million pounds. If every club behaved in the Livvy way, our professional game would have gone to the wall a long time ago.

Livingston just five years ago made all the promises that they had learned their lesson, and it was all going to change. If you had paid your debts these past three years, your annual budget would have been down by something like £300k a year. You would have been relegated long ago. By not paying your debts, you have lived in a league that you couldn't sustain. Its the same old story all over again, and we have ended up in the same place all over again.

Should Livingston stay in existance, it would have been kind of honourable to say that 100k per season would go to paying back historical debt no matter what it cost the club in terms of sacrifices on the park.

However, the old habits remain strong. No such undertaking will be forthcoming, because other things are more important to you that honouring debt. And it is not as if it were an impossible thing to do since other clubs with debt as large as yours have done the the right thing by their creditors. If its a new start, make this first pledge. Undertake to pay every single penny you owe. I don't think I should hold my breath though.

As ever, Livingston will run to the letter of the law before they'd go near the spirit of what is the right thing to do.

Oh for god's sake DF give it a rest. I am not going to argue with you because you know something, you are perfectly correct. There is no justification for what has gone on at Livi. Every time I read your posts I go on yet another guilt trip. I constantly feel the need to apologise to you and to all the other folk who have come on here and have a go because there is no doubt I am definitely guilty of having become a fan of a club that has acted disgracefully over the years. But honestly I understood this about 3000 posts ago just as well as I do now. There was a point around the middle of May when your posts were reasonably constructive and informative. There was even advice given out occasionally. Since then though it has been one long harangue after another. There is absolutely nobody disagreeing with you. It seems to me that nothing other than the elimination of LFC will satisfy you. Fair enough. The thousands of words you have written on the subject would persuade a Philadelphia lawyer that this is the only correct end game.

However sorry as I am for the failings of the owners we have had the misfortune to have had I can't help but remain a committed Livi fan. Football just gets you like that! I haven't got the £1.3 million that has been squandered away but I will give what I can because I want my club to continue (feel guilty again for saying that). I am heartily sick of chancers in charge though and if we do survive and I get the slightest inkling that there has been no change I will walk away. I am not going through this again.

[Sergeant Wilson]

Spot on, Duncan Freemason. Administration is definitely not the way forward: kiss of death for the club maybe. You wouldn't want to be a Cowdenbeath Mk II, with their handful of supporters, would you?

The Trust met with Rankine recently (statement on the Livilions forum) and reading between the lines of that statement I think they probably see the way the wind is blowing and agreed to come into his tent. Can they confirm this? Probably wise move anyway since that is the way to keep First Div. football in Livingston.

You still haven't addressed the points that were made after your last post i.e. You stated Airdrie were out of football for a year. How can anyone think your opinion is worthwhile?That post and your others have indicated your grasp and recall of situations is somewhat lacking.

[bhoonaman]

Probably wise move anyway since that is the way to keep First Div. football in Livingston.

This should be rock bottom of your priority list surely? Where does survival and debt repayment figure in the priorities? As a Clyde fan I am resigned to 3 - 5 years in the wilderness of scottish football as a consequence of the club putting the payment of outstanding debt at the forefront of our thinking. To me, survival in any division is acceptable while we sort our house out.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Duncan's last post has it right- there's no substance behind this Council "action". They're taslking tough to appease angry ratepayers.

A deal will be done in secret, and the council will appear to get their money repayed whilst securing their fucking "senior football" priority.

Livingston survive. Again.

[Tonsilitis]

The council haven't had them in court as yet.

If they had issued a stat demand on July 1st surely it would have been a 7 day demand and hence now expired not with 6 days still to go?

They will be following the lease irritancy process very carefully.

Even if they did present a petition he could ask for an adjournment or defend it on the basis that other creditors might accept a CVA so it is not just and equitable to wind the company up.

A stat demand takes 21 days to expire following service. Local authorities have certain non standard summary powers but I'm not sure they apply to what amounts to a commercial lease. I suspect that the papers served relate to eviction/irritancy rather than an insolvency process.

[RedV]

Oh for god's sake DF give it a rest.......embittered nonsense.....

I beg to differ, as I'm sure the vast majority of posters on this thread do too. Interesting that you object at the very point Livvy seem likely to revert to type as well - Duncan's words must make the action your club are seemingly about to take, with your consent and backing, rather uncomfortable.

[Homer Thompson]

Interesting to hear the new Southampton owners on the radio this morning talking about stability, self sufficiency and long term, rather than short term success.

A far cry from the "3rd force in Scottish" football nonsense Massone was coming out with.

Just goes to show, it can be done properly.

[MCL]

Correct.

The Trust haven't ever asked supporters to withhold their season ticket money.

Surely though, even if every single season ticket holder from last season were to renew that the sum raised would make no serious inroads to the clubs current debt and the way Massone conducts his or the clubs business?

A quote from a "Trust" board member on LL. It shows that they wanted fans to withhold funds to get rid of Massone so they could force the club into admin to implement their business plan. A business plan that meant creditors got shafted.

There's not that many sold, but it's a pity Massone managed to persuade anyone to part with their money. If everyone had held out we might have seen the back of him sooner than this.

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Spot on, Duncan Freemason. Administration is definitely not the way forward: kiss of death for the club maybe. You wouldn't want to be a Cowdenbeath Mk II, with their handful of supporters, would you?

The Trust met with Rankine recently (statement on the Livilions forum) and reading between the lines of that statement I think they probably see the way the wind is blowing and agreed to come into his tent. Can they confirm this? Probably wise move anyway since that is the way to keep First Div. football in Livingston.

You really are an impressively bad liar aren't you. A pathetic attempt to split the support and try and make it look like Rankine is in the driving seat. The Trust statement I would say shows the complete opposite to what you have said.

And you are still dodging the question of who you are and where you turned up from at just the moment Rankine appeared. Your credability is shot sunshine - go off and try to peddle your propaganda somewhere else.

Edit - actually I see that MCL has turned up with his usual twisted logic - I suggest you talk to him - both of you want to shaft Livi - you should get on well together.

Edited July 9, 2009 by penelope pitstop

[AND180Y]

Oh for god's sake DF give it a rest. I am not going to argue with you because you know something, you are perfectly correct. There is no justification for what has gone on at Livi. Every time I read your posts I go on yet another guilt trip. I constantly feel the need to apologise to you and to all the other folk who have come on here and have a go because there is no doubt I am definitely guilty of having become a fan of a club that has acted disgracefully over the years. But honestly I understood this about 3000 posts ago just as well as I do now. There was a point around the middle of May when your posts were reasonably constructive and informative. There was even advice given out occasionally. Since then though it has been one long harangue after another. There is absolutely nobody disagreeing with you. It seems to me that nothing other than the elimination of LFC will satisfy you. Fair enough. The thousands of words you have written on the subject would persuade a Philadelphia lawyer that this is the only correct end game.

However sorry as I am for the failings of the owners we have had the misfortune to have had I can't help but remain a committed Livi fan. Football just gets you like that! I haven't got the £1.3 million that has been squandered away but I will give what I can because I want my club to continue (feel guilty again for saying that). I am heartily sick of chancers in charge though and if we do survive and I get the slightest inkling that there has been no change I will walk away. I am not going through this again.

Typical it's only a problem once if effect the fans uptil then f'ck everyone.

Duncans point is that this hasn't just happened under Massone's watch, it's been going on since your club was born.

Leaving out the shennanigans before the last admin, why did fans allow Flynn to lead the club to the brink of admin (his admission) before selling out to Massone? Why was there no season ticket/don't give the club money protests then? Why did the fans allow Flynn to walk away with a million pounds from the nightclub? Why was it thought okay that the club were bartering hospitality for unpaid bills during Flynns tenure.

Massone has made a pigs ear of it that's for sure but why have the fans and more importantly the trust allowed things to continue to this point, when the club was obviously bankrupt before he bought it, maybe it was the smell of another sugar daddy full of promises of SPL football.

Like I say it matters not to Livi fans when everyone who does business with the club feels pain as long as the club and it's fans remain painfree!!

You wonder why there is no support? Think of all those shafted by the club, think of the council house tenants threatend with eviction for owing a couple of weeks rent or the businesses threatened with eviction for owing a months rent or being held over a cliff edge for struggling to pay their rates, yet reading in the papers of LFC being bailed out yet again!!

Of the sports clubs/community orgs who can't get funding yet see money poured into a venture that few in West Lothian want.

Perhaps then you will see why no one give a f'ck.

[AND180Y]

A stat demand takes 21 days to expire following service. Local authorities have certain non standard summary powers but I'm not sure they apply to what amounts to a commercial lease. I suspect that the papers served relate to eviction/irritancy rather than an insolvency process.

I stand corrected on the stat demand expiry, (sure I had seen one with 7 days on it)

The papers would definately be a demand for repayment/remedy of the breach (not paying the rent) as they have to irritate the lease before taking action to recover the rent due or the case is prejudiced by allowing the tenant to remain in possession.

Massone will argue about the sums due and it will drag on for weeks.

Can a liquidator be appointed when the debt disputed or no decree had been obtained?

[southview]

Spot on, Duncan Freemason. Administration is definitely not the way forward: kiss of death for the club maybe. You wouldn't want to be a Cowdenbeath Mk II, with their handful of supporters, would you?

The Trust met with Rankine recently (statement on the Livilions forum) and reading between the lines of that statement I think they probably see the way the wind is blowing and agreed to come into his tent. Can they confirm this? Probably wise move anyway since that is the way to keep First Div. football in Livingston.

What is your agenda?

I'll bet administration isn't the way forward - because it would be highly unlikely that you would come through it and still be in business.

And the way you talk about "Cowdenbeath Mk II with their handful of supporters" is highly disrespectful. I don't know much about their financial position, but I do know that other clubs that are often criticised for allegedly "having no ambition and hardly any fans" conduct themselves in a far better manner than this club have.

[Sergeant Wilson]

I beg to differ, as I'm sure the vast majority of posters on this thread do too. Interesting that you object at the very point Livvy seem likely to revert to type as well - Duncan's words must make the action your club are seemingly about to take, with your consent and backing, rather uncomfortable.

Errrmm. Didn't we back a fairly unpopular course of action a wee while back? It was popular in Airdrie, granted.