Livingston - all the threads merged

[KingfaetheSooth]

Duncan's last post has it right- there's no substance behind this Council "action". They're taslking tough to appease angry ratepayers.

A deal will be done in secret, and the council will appear to get their money repayed whilst securing their fucking "senior football" priority.

Livingston survive. Again.

Agreed - the Council have "invested" too much over the last 14 years to allow Senior football to disappear from West Lothian.

I've said all along that the council will be talking to the trust and any interested business partners behind the scenes. There aim will be safeguard a football club in the SFL at almost any cost. The football authorities will be being kept informed too I imagine. The simple aim is to get rid of Massone and go forward with new owners.

I understand the disgust many feel that Livingston will yet again get away without paying their creditors - Duncan Freemason has been one of the best P&B posters in recent months.

It happens regularly down south though. Luton Town (for example), have been in administration three times in the last 10 years. They suffered a 20 point deduction for this last season - and the club was relegated to the Blue Square Conference National - but the club still exists - though their fall from grace has been quite steep.

There needs to be much tougher penalties for a football club going into administation - perhaps a demotion of three levels in England - or in Scotland expulsion from the SFL - with the club reforming at Junior/amateur level if there is the support from the local community and fans.

[Guest zupa]

According to todays Sun, Livvy player Phil Cave gets a text message not to report to pre-season training ! .He is apparently owed nearly £3k in wages and is still under contract to the club.

Disgrace.

[andymac]

There needs to be much tougher penalties for a football club going into administation - perhaps a demotion of three levels in England - or in Scotland expulsion from the SFL - with the club reforming at Junior/amateur level if there is the support from the local community and fans.

I agree - that sort of sanction would force clubs to get their finances in order and, indeed, level the playing field for most clubs in Scotland at least. Livvi have simply got away with it up until now. Ironically, their fate could be worse than demotion out of the Scottish Leagues - a good reason alone for tightening the rules.

[MCL]

Edit - actually I see that MCL has turned up with his usual twisted logic - I suggest you talk to him - both of you want to shaft Livi - you should get on well together.

Nonsense. I'm a Livi fan so why would I want to shaft them ? I want them to survive - I was just pointing out the agenda of the (lack of ) "Trust".

They urged fans to cut off Massone's cash flow as a means of taking over the club. It's possible the club will be liquidated instead so it's a dangerous game they are playing. They should have tried harder to work with Massone to bring in his spending but they kept walking out of meetings when they didn't get to their way.

A lot of the posters on here are saying if we go bust that Livi should start again in the Juniors or EoS. Do you really think the "Trust" are interested in doing that ? I don't.

[Yoss]

MCL - there's a perfectly valid argument for thinking that the club is fucked either way under Massone and its in the best long-term interests of the club to get rid of him before doing anything else.

It's not a point-of-view you agree with, that's obviously fair enough, but your continuous determination not just to disagree but to criticise the motives of those who do see it that way is unwarranted and isn't doing anything for your credibility on the thread.

[KingfaetheSooth]

MCL - there's a perfectly valid argument for thinking that the club is fucked either way under Massone and its in the best long-term interests of the club to get rid of him before doing anything else.

It's not a point-of-view you agree with, that's obviously fair enough, but your continuous determination not just to disagree but to criticise the motives of those who do see it that way is unwarranted and isn't doing anything for your credibility on the thread.

Fairly obvious that MCL hates the Livi trust more than Massone. I think he has personal issues with one or more members of the trust Board.

I tend to take his posts with a pinch of salt.

[Guest penelope pitstop]

Nonsense. I'm a Livi fan so why would I want to shaft them ? I want them to survive - I was just pointing out the agenda of the (lack of ) "Trust".

They urged fans to cut off Massone's cash flow as a means of taking over the club. It's possible the club will be liquidated instead so it's a dangerous game they are playing. They should have tried harder to work with Massone to bring in his spending but they kept walking out of meetings when they didn't get to their way.

A lot of the posters on here are saying if we go bust that Livi should start again in the Juniors or EoS. Do you really think the "Trust" are interested in doing that ? I don't.

I'm afraid all I can see is a deeply bitter individual who has set his face against anything that might produce a sustainable club. You say the "Trust" (I did say how petty that made you look didn't I? And a style tip - adding (lack of) in brackets is probably tortology unless you think the posters on here are particularly slow) wouldn't be interested in junior football - how do you know that?

In any event the Trust is made up of its members, so even if you were right (and I do not think you are but it is another handy smear isn't it) and the current members drifted away those who were interested could take up the banner

By the way I note you have never answered my question about whether you were going to answer Massone's and Rankine's plea for volunteers. As you simply ignore the question I think it would be fair to take that as a no. Which leaves you sitting on the edge attacking fans who are making an effort, but not prepared to do anything yourself other than try and tear others apart by picking away at the seams of statements to try and prove something that only you believe anyway. You say you want the club to survive but talking the talk isn't walking the walk is it?

If you really are a Livi fan (and as a newcomer here I haven't seen any evidence that you are but I accept that you are nominally one) then maybe you ought to be doing something as well. At the least maybe you should consider your posting on here and decide if it is really in the interests of Livi. By supporting Massone you are supporting him against all those unpaid players and staff and all the broken promises and lies - aren't you better than that?

[AyrshireTon]

This should be rock bottom of your priority list surely? Where does survival and debt repayment figure in the priorities? As a Clyde fan I am resigned to 3 - 5 years in the wilderness of scottish football as a consequence of the club putting the payment of outstanding debt at the forefront of our thinking. To me, survival in any division is acceptable while we sort our house out.

Spot on.

In Hugh Scott's last season in charge (with his hand up the bum of the adminstrator puppets) we got relegated to the 2nd division and nobody gave a flying f**k - having a team and ground to play in the 2nd division was more of priority. New owner in charge, team clubbed together, we got relegated to the 3rd - and still nobody gave a toss.

Starting from near scratch is not the most difficult thing to do, unless your support is reared on unrealistic ambitions.

[Whistle Blower]

Spot on.

In Hugh Scott's last season in charge (with his hand up the bum of the adminstrator puppets) we got relegated to the 2nd division and nobody gave a flying f**k - having a team and ground to play in the 2nd division was more of priority. New owner in charge, team clubbed together, we got relegated to the 3rd - and still nobody gave a toss.

Starting from near scratch is not the most difficult thing to do, unless your support is reared on unrealistic ambitions.

Totally agree with that.

Raith are fecked financially and will be till 2021, but at least there is a team to support.

[Airdrie76]

There needs to be much tougher penalties for a football club going into administation - perhaps a demotion of three levels in England - or in Scotland expulsion from the SFL - with the club reforming at Junior/amateur level if there is the support from the local community and fans.

I don't necessarily disagree with this BUT every instance where administration occurs isn't the same.

As someone who cares about "fans", who do you think would ultimately suffer if a team was kicked out the league? The supporters may not for instance have been able to do anything to prevent AN Other, the corrupt business man from running up the huge wads of debt. And while administration would probably see off those ultimately responsible (accept in Motherwells case of course), your suggested actions would punish those left behind, ie. the fans AND anybody looking to come in and pick up the pieces (Luton Town being an example of this).

It's only in an ideal world that supporters and trusts have such power that they can prevent bad things happening to their club.

Please note I wouldn't even try to shoe horn Livingston into the above, it's more just a general comment.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Oh for god's sake DF give it a rest. I am not going to argue with you because you know something, you are perfectly correct. There is no justification for what has gone on at Livi. Every time I read your posts I go on yet another guilt trip. I constantly feel the need to apologise to you and to all the other folk who have come on here and have a go because there is no doubt I am definitely guilty of having become a fan of a club that has acted disgracefully over the years. But honestly I understood this about 3000 posts ago just as well as I do now. There was a point around the middle of May when your posts were reasonably constructive and informative. There was even advice given out occasionally. Since then though it has been one long harangue after another. There is absolutely nobody disagreeing with you. It seems to me that nothing other than the elimination of LFC will satisfy you. Fair enough. The thousands of words you have written on the subject would persuade a Philadelphia lawyer that this is the only correct end game.

However sorry as I am for the failings of the owners we have had the misfortune to have had I can't help but remain a committed Livi fan. Football just gets you like that! I haven't got the £1.3 million that has been squandered away but I will give what I can because I want my club to continue (feel guilty again for saying that). I am heartily sick of chancers in charge though and if we do survive and I get the slightest inkling that there has been no change I will walk away. I am not going through this again.

I feel the same! Right now I'm so fed up I just wish someone would pull the bloody trigger! I do not disagree with Duncan's points made but trying to rectify it, from a fans point of view, is impossible! what else can we do?

[ss..schlecht]

Duncan, how do you feel about Dundees situation? Considering they were in administration previously and have now walked away from a further reported debt of £7 million for roughly £1M (obviously we don't know exact figures but these seem to be the accepted rough ballpark) thus twicw not paying what they owe, does this differ from Livi?

I accept that Dundee were servicing their debt and were just in the "fortunate" position to do this, but does it make a difference that it was a "faceless bank" they owed money to and not local small businesses and creditors. I know you got shafted in the last bout of Livi administration, and I'm not trying to defend them in any way, but I'm just wondering what the difference is between an old established club shafting creditors and a relatively new one.

[Ivo den Bieman]

I'm convinced that after the last day's posts on here that nothing will happen and Livi will get through this.

They benefit from a council not willing to close the club down, indeed willing to do almost anything to keep the name of Livingston on the pools coupon, and a football regulating authority lacking the will and the resources to do anything about it. A football authority which energetically pursues the likes of Brechin City for an alleged breach of a frankly irrelevant UEFA licensing directive, and looks the other way when a club runs up debts to can't afford and then expects others to pick up the tab. So a small club turning a small profit is clobbered by the SFL, having lived within ts means throughout its existence (and payed the price of decades of pretty unglamorous football in the nether regions of the domestic leagues, at least until the mid 80s), and a small club which ignores economic reality and continues to harbour an absolutely false self image as an SPL club in waiting, is left to f**k people over unhindered.

Either way the creditors are shafted and, to be honest, if this shower of chancers are allowed to start the season in SFL1, so is the integrity of Scottish league competition.

The only way of making recompense to the creditors, as DF suggests, is to get a system in place whereby historic debt is payed off. But how long does the wee painter and decorator have to wait for his four grand for painting the boardroom? Ten years? That's an eternity for someone struggling to keep a small business afloat on very tight margins.

The whole thing is a standing disgrace and an absolute embarrassment to Scottish football.

[MCL]

I'm afraid all I can see is a deeply bitter individual who has set his face against anything that might produce a sustainable club. You say the "Trust" (I did say how petty that made you look didn't I? And a style tip - adding (lack of) in brackets is probably tortology unless you think the posters on here are particularly slow) wouldn't be interested in junior football - how do you know that?

Not bitter at all but I have the right to an opinion as everyone else on here have I not ? You did say it was petty but I still find the name ironic. I'm not the only one that has a lack of trust in them. And I did feel the need to add the (lack of) because a lot of the posters do come across as being retarded

In any event the Trust is made up of its members, so even if you were right (and I do not think you are but it is another handy smear isn't it) and the current members drifted away those who were interested could take up the banner

I'm fairly sure another team won't spring up. Someone mentioned that the effort could go into Livingston United Juniors but only time will tell.

By the way I note you have never answered my question about whether you were going to answer Massone's and Rankine's plea for volunteers. As you simply ignore the question I think it would be fair to take that as a no. Which leaves you sitting on the edge attacking fans who are making an effort, but not prepared to do anything yourself other than try and tear others apart by picking away at the seams of statements to try and prove something that only you believe anyway. You say you want the club to survive but talking the talk isn't walking the walk is it?

I think that proves you've not been taking in what I've written previously as I did answer the question. I'm a photographer and Livi already have that position filled. I have previously worked for the club often without receiving anything in return.

If you really are a Livi fan (and as a newcomer here I haven't seen any evidence that you are but I accept that you are nominally one) then maybe you ought to be doing something as well. At the least maybe you should consider your posting on here and decide if it is really in the interests of Livi. By supporting Massone you are supporting him against all those unpaid players and staff and all the broken promises and lies - aren't you better than that?

I am a Livi fan, I was at the first ever game at Almondvale, cup defeat at Aberdeen as a 2nd div club, cup final, Forfar 2nd div championship game, Vaduz, and plenty more in between. In fact, I hardly missed a game until the last season when I started covering SPL games for an agency.

I don't support Massone, I'm friendly with most of the players and staff and think it's abhorent that they weren't paid. That's why cutting off the cash flow to Massone was hurting them even more. Maybe you missed the bit at the start of the thread that mentioned I was a creditor and taking Massone to court ?

Original report from the Daily Record

[KingfaetheSooth]

Starting from near scratch is not the most difficult thing to do, unless your support is reared on unrealistic ambitions.

Try starting again in the Combined Counties League.

I don't necessarily disagree with this BUT every instance where administration occurs isn't the same.

As someone who cares about "fans", who do you think would ultimately suffer if a team was kicked out the league? The supporters may not for instance have been able to do anything to prevent AN Other, the corrupt business man from running up the huge wads of debt. And while administration would probably see off those ultimately responsible (accept in Motherwells case of course), your suggested actions would punish those left behind, ie. the fans AND anybody looking to come in and pick up the pieces (Luton Town being an example of this).

It's only in an ideal world that supporters and trusts have such power that they can prevent bad things happening to their club.

Please note I wouldn't even try to shoe horn Livingston into the above, it's more just a general comment.

Fair comment. In the ideal world, the football authorities would grow some balls and regulate the game with rigorous and regular financial checks and a 'fit and proper' person test for anyone/group who takes over a football club. Couple this with a bond or some form of guarantee that a club can complete a season - we might just have sustainable clubs, living within their means and a level playing field. Fans becoming more involved with their clubs and (whisper it quietly even on the Board) might help too. I'm talking about proper democratic Supporter Representation. I'm not holding my breath though and I can accept that such a model is unlikely to be met with unanimous support and is a mere pipe-dream.

In the meantime, I think there needs to be drastic penalties for clubs who f**k around and don't pay their dues. It might hit the fans hard - but so be it.

[Tonsilitis]

I stand corrected on the stat demand expiry, (sure I had seen one with 7 days on it)

The papers would definately be a demand for repayment/remedy of the breach (not paying the rent) as they have to irritate the lease before taking action to recover the rent due or the case is prejudiced by allowing the tenant to remain in possession.

Massone will argue about the sums due and it will drag on for weeks.

Can a liquidator be appointed when the debt disputed or no decree had been obtained?

Essentially no! The court can make a winding up order if satisfied that the company's assets are exceeded by its liabilities (including contingent debts) In so cases that can be done but such cases a rare. You basically have to do the corporate equivalent of establishing apparent insolvency for an individual. The court can also make an order if it is in the public interest but that would usually apply to a company taking deposits or the like. There might be an interesting argument in this respect about taking money from season ticket holders.

[ianton]

Try starting again in the Combined Counties League.

Fair comment. In the ideal world, the football authorities would grow some balls and regulate the game with rigorous and regular financial checks and a 'fit and proper' person test for anyone/group who takes over a football club. Couple this with a bond or some form of guarantee that a club can complete a season - we might just have sustainable clubs, living within their means and a level playing field. Fans becoming more involved with their clubs and (whisper it quietly even on the Board) might help too. I'm talking about proper democratic Supporter Representation. I'm not holding my breath though and I can accept that such a model is unlikely to be met with unanimous support and is a mere pipe-dream.

In the meantime, I think there needs to be drastic penalties for clubs who f**k around and don't pay their dues. It might hit the fans hard - but so be it.

Absolutely correct

[Tryfield]

The name Massone should be in the Urban Dictionary as the funky new name for Bullshit.

[Guest Wall E]

They urged fans to cut off Massone's cash flow as a means of taking over the club.

No they didn't. 

[midTONs]

Spot on.

In Hugh Scott's last season in charge (with his hand up the bum of the adminstrator puppets) we got relegated to the 2nd division and nobody gave a flying f**k - having a team and ground to play in the 2nd division was more of priority. New owner in charge, team clubbed together, we got relegated to the 3rd - and still nobody gave a toss.

Starting from near scratch is not the most difficult thing to do, unless your support is reared on unrealistic ambitions.

and that season in the third division goes down as probably the best Ive had in following Morton FC, winning the league that year was something really special, after what we had been through that title meant more to me than all three of the titles I watched them win to get to the Premier league.

There was something about the Morton support back then that had everyone of them signing from the same hymn sheet and I think that pulled us through those dark times, something I just don't see amongst the Livi support