Livingston - all the threads merged

[Guest Insight]

Excellent post. You clearly are a clever little boy.

Who are Vale of Levein by the way? Interesting you talk of diddy clubs while apparently being obsessed with your (much bigger and better) rivals manager.

(I'll ignore the fact you can't spell Airdrieonians either and are too stupid to recognise the guy says he supports Airdrie Utd - who clearly aren't extinct)

Thanks.

Extinct.

Only his stupidity.

Thanks again - spelling of teams that no longer exist was never a strong point

[Airdrie76]

How anyone can take pride in supporting a diddy team is beyond me - last reply on the subject as its not worth pursuing with a club that i don't recognise in football.

That lasted long!

[Guest]

I think the point the man might be making is that he will put together a deal to take over the club which involves paying the council £70k which is better than they will get if the club enters some form of insolvency process.

I can see where he is coming from - its called a composition with creditors but he has to take care of all the creditors on a similar basis. If Massone is genuinely owed £500k and he writes that off, the remaining debt is £8-900k and paying 25% of that would cost the £200-250k he's talking about. Trouble is, after that he needs to sort ongoing losses which seem to be running at around £10k a week and find working capital.

Only problem is that he isn't presenting it as anything other than next year's rent of £50k (a rate which was wholly dependent upon the previous debt of £280k being cleared) and a payment of £20k as part payment for the debt of £280k. The huge flaw in all of this is that it does not reduce the debt of the club by a single penny.

As we've both said previously, it just moves around who it is that the debt is owed to.

Set aside the debt for the moment. To stop it increasing further, that would mean the club paying its bills as they arose. If the club is indeed losing £10k a week, then costs need to be reduced by that amount.............and that means getting off the "additional investment" nonsense.......it actually means cutting costs for real.

For a club like this to do that has to mean part time football. No more, no less. Then there is the matter of paying back those debts. So far, there is absolutely zero appetite for the things that need to be addressed. The first thing that will abandoned is any intention of paying bills.

[Pesadilla]

A member of your family told me that you were done outside Hampden for drink-related behaviour. I'll pass on to them that they are a liar

Really?

So, being given a fixed penalty notice for having a bottle (WKD of all things) is the same as being arrested for drunk and disorderly? Outside grounds? Makes me a "known troublemaker"?

I think we have a case of slander here!

You really better ask that member of my familly what the f**k they've told you. That sort of accusation could land one in serious bother.

[RedV]

Really?

So, being given a fixed penalty notice for having a bottle (WKD of all things) is the same as being arrested for drunk and disorderly? Outside grounds? Makes me a "known troublemaker"?

I think we have a case of slander here!

You really better ask that member of my familly what the f**k they've told you. That sort of accusation could land one in serious bother.

Ignore him. Swampy can be an utter fud sometimes and this is clearly going to be one of them.

Better watch he doesn't go running off to the mods in floods of tears, though. He does that too.

[unthinkable]

I think the point the man might be making is that he will put together a deal to take over the club which involves paying the council £70k which is better than they will get if the club enters some form of insolvency process.

I can see where he is coming from - its called a composition with creditors but he has to take care of all the creditors on a similar basis. If Massone is genuinely owed £500k and he writes that off, the remaining debt is £8-900k and paying 25% of that would cost the £200-250k he's talking about. Trouble is, after that he needs to sort ongoing losses which seem to be running at around £10k a week and find working capital.

Just a few months ago Clyde were being chased for a whacking amount from Lanarkshire council in rent arrears before they accepted a partial amount and a voluntary repayment plan. It is probably the most sensible plan for the council to recoup at least some of the cash owed.

As has been mentioned before though that if every creditor wants the same then they are in the same mess and particularly if they are still losing money on a weekly/monthly basis.

Considering Livi have failed to pay players, taxman, rent, electric, police etc. then where has the income that has been generated actually gone. There cannot be much more to pay for a football club's operation after that lot.

[Swampy]

Really?

So, being given a fixed penalty notice for having a bottle (WKD of all things) is the same as being arrested for drunk and disorderly? Outside grounds? Makes me a "known troublemaker"?

I think we have a case of slander here!

You really better ask that member of my familly what the f**k they've told you. That sort of accusation could land one in serious bother.

1. Mea culpa, I should probably have phrased that better. I apologise for saying that you were arrested for being drunk and disorderly, as this is completely false.

You were, of course, merely breaking the law outside a football ground. With a bottle of WKD in hand. This is very different, of course.

2. Next to Hampden (the big one) is Lesser Hampden (the little one.) How can you fail to notice two separate grounds?

3. Yes, yes it does. You received a police fine for your behaviour, and will be known to them (as to me) as someone who causes trouble around football grounds. I don't really think you can be trusted to speak with authority on football matters now that your dark, dark past has been revealed.

edit: also - haha you drink wkd!

Edited July 6, 2009 by Swampy

[Swampy]

Ignore him. Swampy can be an utter fud sometimes and this is clearly going to be one of them.

Well, no. Now that I've established Pesadilla's criminal history - the kind that so disgraces the Beautiful Game that we real fans love so much - I'd rather turn my attention back towards Livingston FC.

Better watch he doesn't go running off to the mods in floods of tears, though. He does that too.

This kind of allegation could land someone in serious bother

[port-ton]

I don't want to say anything to get on massone's bad side, because im hoping to hire one of the hospitality suites for a party when he buys the stadium.

[Pesadilla]

1. Mea culpa, I should probably have phrased that better. I apologise for saying that you were arrested for being drunk and disorderly, as this is completely false.

You were, of course, merely breaking the law outside a football ground. With a bottle of WKD in hand. This is very different, of course.

2. Next to Hampden (the big one) is Lesser Hampden (the little one.) How can you fail to notice two separate grounds?

3. Yes, yes it does. You received a police fine for your behaviour, and will be known to them (as to me) as someone who causes trouble around football grounds. I don't really think you can be trusted to speak with authority on football matters now that your dark, dark past has been revealed.

edit: also - haha you drink wkd!

1. Apology accepted.

2. Wasn't near lesser hampden, opposite end.

3. You clearly know very little of the law. Your definition of "trouble" leaves a lot to be desired also.

(and yes, it is amusing to get done for drinking WKD)

[Tonsilitis]

Only problem is that he isn't presenting it as anything other than next year's rent of £50k (a rate which was wholly dependent upon the previous debt of £280k being cleared) and a payment of £20k as part payment for the debt of £280k. The huge flaw in all of this is that it does not reduce the debt of the club by a single penny.

As we've both said previously, it just moves around who it is that the debt is owed to.

Set aside the debt for the moment. To stop it increasing further, that would mean the club paying its bills as they arose. If the club is indeed losing £10k a week, then costs need to be reduced by that amount.............and that means getting off the "additional investment" nonsense.......it actually means cutting costs for real.

For a club like this to do that has to mean part time football. No more, no less. Then there is the matter of paying back those debts. So far, there is absolutely zero appetite for the things that need to be addressed. The first thing that will abandoned is any intention of paying bills.

Just a few months ago Clyde were being chased for a whacking amount from Lanarkshire council in rent arrears before they accepted a partial amount and a voluntary repayment plan. It is probably the most sensible plan for the council to recoup at least some of the cash owed.

As has been mentioned before though that if every creditor wants the same then they are in the same mess and particularly if they are still losing money on a weekly/monthly basis.

Considering Livi have failed to pay players, taxman, rent, electric, police etc. then where has the income that has been generated actually gone. There cannot be much more to pay for a football club's operation after that lot.

The issue with a composition is getting all the creditors to agree it. There is a statutory framework for imposing it on dissenting creditors if a majority are in favour - a creditors voluntary arrangement - but that is usually preceded by an admin order to protect the company whilst the CVA is being put in place. Most of the clubs that have been in admin have exited via a CVA.

From the council's point of view, there are risks to accepting a settlement less than the full rent:

1) There is the message it sends to others who owe the council money

2) Councillors may be worried about the views of the majority of West Lothian voters who have no allegience to Livi whatsoever.

3) If Livi go down within six months of such a payment being made, the presiding insolvency practitioner may be able to get it back as a fraudulent preference. In an insolvency situation, all the creditors have to be seen to be getting equal treatment. The principle is that you can't pay the council 25% of their debt and not pay the Pie man similarly.

[KingfaetheSooth]

My word, you really are quite dim.

You're going on about the "fans". What about the fans of Kings Park? What about the fans of the two Dumfries clubs? What about the fans of the Inverness clubs (where, incidentally, there was a huge amount of bitterness and resentment)? Well...........? Shall I tell you? It doesn't quite fit with your myopic view of Scottish football, doesn't fit your agenda...so you choose to ignore.

I'm dim? You cannot even spell the word "family" - one "L" is all that is required.

I've already explained my viewpoint on the merger of the Dumfries clubs and ICT - I'm well aware of the bitterness from some ex-Caley fans - I have a lot of sympathy for them - there have been a couple of threads on P&B on this subject in the past.

There is unlikely to be any living fans of the two Dumfries clubs who merged in 1919 - perhaps there was some ill feeling at the time - who knows? - the new club was formed by consensus though - and we are talking about a completely diffrent era. Try talking about Arsenal relocating from Woolwich to North London - and you might just have a point.

If you're concerned about the fans, what of those who have lose league position to the likes of made up teams like AFC Wimbledon and FC United......again.....that doesn't suit your agenda.

New clubs are formed all the time - why should the formation of new clubs like AFCW and FCUM affect other clubs. Both clubs started at the bottom of the pyramid for their respective support and didn't put any clubs out of any leagues.

Fans taking action into their own hands - that's not an agenda - that's my view on supporters who use adversity in a positive way. I'm quite happy to praise the fans of the likes of Gretna 2008 and Clydebank who did similar. If Ballantyne had not bought Clydebank's league place, there might well have been a RedV team playing in the Juniors - that would have been worthy of praise too.

If the one thing that comes out of this Livingston debacle is that their supporters get more involved with the running of their club - whether that is via a pheonix AFC Livingston or the existing club - that's good too.

So concerned about "fans" that you'd take pleasure in seeing Livingston and Airdrie go out of business, losing probably 2500 attendees to the "dying on it's arse" Scottish game!

These clubs profited at the expense of other clubs - what about the fans of Meadowbank and Clydebank - they didn't have any say in what happened to their clubs. The Scottish game is indeed "on it's arse" - perhaps if the supporters were at the forefront of the thinking of the football blazers - that just might change.

So concened about the plight of Stirling that you attempted a mild form of blackmail by asking for info on how many had signed up to their cause, in return for you "possibly" signing up! Fucking priceless.

No, I was genuinely interested in how many people had signed up - and they have my full support. They have run a vibrant campaign - long may it continue. I was given details of the numbers via PM - and agreed not to reveal the numbers.

On just about every subject you've posted on relating to Airdrie, you say things like we can't claim our past glories as we're essentially Clydebank.....then without even a hint of sarcasm, say you "don't entirely agree with" AFC Wimblebum doing the same! You can't have it both ways!

No - Airdrie United like AFC Wimbledon are both new clubs - the fans that watch both of them mainly supported the old clubs though - they were there to watch those trophies being won for their local community. The difference is that Airdrie United killed off Clydebank as a senior club whereas AFC Wimbledon were formed as a last resort.

If AFC Wimbledon had bought (say) Barnet's league place, I would have wanted nothing to do with them. (and I do appreciate that there is no pyramid system in Scotland - so there was no possibility of Airdrie United reforming on the bottom rung and climbing back up via a pyramid) I can understand why Airdrie united fans worship their Chairman right enough - and that's whether or not he was a past member of Section B.

Your just an unpopular little dick, going round telling everyone how fucking great you are 'cause your a "real" fan of a "real", albeit made up, team. You're exactly the type of bell-end I'd not just ban from football, but have publicly flogged for their self-righteous, holier-than-thou attitude. You'll, absolutely no doubt, be a virgin. But where do you start now? At your age? It all looks quite scary!!!! No, instead, you'll just sit at home, w**k, eat Wotsits and tell everyone how great you are. Maybe one day, Big Ste from AFC Wimbecunt supporters will rape your arse for you, out of pity mind, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Nope - I fully admit that my views are coloured by having my football club torn away from me - and I do indeed bang on about it more than some people like or can take - fair enough, guilty as charged. At the end of the day this forum is going to change nothing though - it's a place to rant, debate and take the piss. If I wind you up so much, Put me on ignore or don't read my myopic rants.

When you resort to insults, you have lost the argument - and you are well wide of the mark too FWIW. Good rant though - I like your passion.

In short, I don't like you.

Fair enough, you don't even know me though. Don't assume you can tell what people are like from their posts on a football forum though.

Outside a ground - drinking a bottle of WKD? Were you wearing a KKK mask at the time?

He can rant with some eloquence though.

I've seen better. 6/10 at best.

[EdinburghPar1975]

Just a few months ago Clyde were being chased for a whacking amount from Lanarkshire council in rent arrears before they accepted a partial amount and a voluntary repayment plan. It is probably the most sensible plan for the council to recoup at least some of the cash owed.

Yes but Clyde also released all their players, Livi have announced no such cut backs at all. Massone has simply asked for people to come and work for nothing in order to remain at their current level. I can't see how you can have it both ways, by all means offer the council a smaller up front payment along with other creditors but at least show that there are cuts being made at the club to try and ensure the remaining debt will be cleared.

Has there been any further announcements as to how talks are progressing? If somethings going to be agreed it surely has to happen in the next day or so to stand a chance of getting accepted or negotiated.

[Robbo]

Daily Retard has an article stating that WLC have insisted they won`t give Livi further time to pay off the debt

[Guest Travelling Man]

The issue with a composition is getting all the creditors to agree it. There is a statutory framework for imposing it on dissenting creditors if a majority are in favour - a creditors voluntary arrangement - but that is usually preceded by an admin order to protect the company whilst the CVA is being put in place. Most of the clubs that have been in admin have exited via a CVA.

From the council's point of view, there are risks to accepting a settlement less than the full rent:

1) There is the message it sends to others who owe the council money

2) Councillors may be worried about the views of the majority of West Lothian voters who have no allegience to Livi whatsoever.

3) If Livi go down within six months of such a payment being made, the presiding insolvency practitioner may be able to get it back as a fraudulent preference. In an insolvency situation, all the creditors have to be seen to be getting equal treatment. The principle is that you can't pay the council 25% of their debt and not pay the Pie man similarly.

The council has to be the key to this whole deal. If the council are realistic about what they get and over what period of time then the other creditors will fall in line. They would all - fairly obviously - rather have some money than no money and it will be a foolish council that feels otherwise.

And on another point, aren't you all still getting hung up on Massone? As I understand what he has said, and what any new investors would insist on, he is history.

It's difficult to follow the logic of many of the posts on this forum. Don't you guys want to retain First Division football, in fact SFL football at all? For make no mistake administration now means being kicked out of the SFL and taking a chance on readmission into the Third Division. Maybe that would work out and maybe not. Heavy price to pay for being too cynical about people's motives and backing wrong horses.

[Benjamin_Nevis]

The council has to be the key to this whole deal. If the council are realistic about what they get and over what period of time then the other creditors will fall in line. They would all - fairly obviously - rather have some money than no money and it will be a foolish council that feels otherwise.

And on another point, aren't you all still getting hung up on Massone? As I understand what he has said, and what any new investors would insist on, he is history.

It's difficult to follow the logic of many of the posts on this forum. Don't you guys want to retain First Division football, in fact SFL football at all? For make no mistake administration now means being kicked out of the SFL and taking a chance on readmission into the Third Division. Maybe that would work out and maybe not. Heavy price to pay for being too cynical about people's motives and backing wrong horses.

IMO the Council should tell Rankine to shove his derisory offer where the sun don't shine. I don't think you can blame people for being cynical over the motives of Rankine and this mysterious band of bored ex-football chairmen he claims want to save Livi. Airdrie, Dumbarton and East Fife fans have all warned Livi fans not to trust this guy. Why is this?

Another point worth noting is that the Council are setting a dangerous precedent for themselves if they accept this reduction. I'd imagine other creditors of WLC are watching with interest.

[Homer Thompson]

The council has to be the key to this whole deal. If the council are realistic about what they get and over what period of time then the other creditors will fall in line. They would all - fairly obviously - rather have some money than no money and it will be a foolish council that feels otherwise.

But, as others have said, the council could then be setting a precedent by accepting a reduced payment. Theres also no guarantee that Livvi would stick to any reduced payment plan anyway. They havent stuck to the current one, or previous ones, so the WLC could end up with nothing either way. Maybe they've decided enough is enough and to protect their other interests are calling this to a head.

And on another point, aren't you all still getting hung up on Massone? As I understand what he has said, and what any new investors would insist on, he is history.

What has Massone said to make you think he's history? Hes still in charge of the club and doesnt seem likely to go, unless someone pays him his mythical half a mill, or the club goes under. How can you not get "hung up" on a guy who is dragging a club into liquidation?

It's difficult to follow the logic of many of the posts on this forum. Don't you guys want to retain First Division football, in fact SFL football at all? For make no mistake administration now means being kicked out of the SFL and taking a chance on readmission into the Third Division. Maybe that would work out and maybe not. Heavy price to pay for being too cynical about people's motives and backing wrong horses.

Administration will almost certainly mean 3rd division football for Livvy, not being kicked out of the league. The SFL set a precedence when Gretna went into admin.

[Yoss]

Gretna's relegation to the third division was because of issues with their ground, not simply a response to administration.

[Homer Thompson]

Gretna's relegation to the third division was because of issues with their ground, not simply a response to administration.

Was it? You mean like not having a safety certificate?

[KingfaetheSooth]

But, as others have said, the council could then be setting a precedent by accepting a reduced payment. Theres also no guarantee that Livvi would stick to any reduced payment plan anyway. They havent stuck to the current one, or previous ones, so the WLC could end up with nothing either way. Maybe they've decided enough is enough and to protect their other interests are calling this to a head.

I'm fairly sure that the Council will play hard-ball with Massone and his band of rogues. The Council have (fairly) obviously been talking to Nixon (and possibly MacDougall's representatives) behind the scenes. The main thrust is now to get rid of Massone and the chancers and go forward with the trust/Nixon/MacDougall, probably at a lower level.

I would not be suprised if the SFL/other club Chairman have been involved in the discussions too. There has been little public outcry from other SFL clubs which suggest to me, that things are going on behind the scenes. Time will tell - but there is a lot as stake financially if Livingston FC go under and are not replaced for season 2009/10. The SFL would be slaughtered after what happened last season with Gretna. They may be limited in what they can say or do in public at the moment though.