Livingston - all the threads merged

[Yoss]

Walking out was childish and unprofessional. If they want to help then they need to develop a thick skin. How can they hope to run a football club if they walk out the room every time someone says something they don't like ? How can they hope to influence people if they stomp out with a petted lip like a scolded two-year-old ?

They missed half of the meeting when more of the fans spoke and asked questions. How can they claim to speak for the fans if they aren't in the room to listen to what they say ? They missed Stephen Mulholland speaking a lot of sense but their egos couldn't stand it.

The small chance we have of saving the club was discussed without the "Trust" and LLSC being represented because they took the hump. I stayed because as a fan I want to hear of any chance there is to save the club. I don't care if Rankine makes a profit as long as the club is saved.

Angela Constance is in the position, although not able to get government funding, to knock heads together at the council to find a solution. Peter Johnston is leader of the SNP council and she is SNP MSP for the area and will have a bit of power over him.

The club have no money so if fans have the time and ability to help the club get on an even keel by working for nowt then what is wrong with that ? I saw a comment recently about how some clubs have volunteers on turnstyles and serveries to save their club money. Might have been AFC Wimbledon ?

I think they feel the club isn't saveable under the current regime and no amount of trying to work with it will do any good. And I think they're probably right.

Wimbledon do indeed have volunteers doing all sorts of stuff but as the pevious poster said, the Trust runs the club. They've shown what can be done but they've done it entirely under their own steam and did so not by working with by by breaking from the businessmen who previously owned the club and who wanted people to help them out of the hole they'd made for themselves through bad investment.

[Mikewn]

I've got nothing new to add to my own or anyone elses earlier posts.

I will simply re-iterate, and trust me I do know, the following, as succinctly as I can, with regard to his claims re Airdrie

RANKINE IS A FUCKING LIAR.

Strong, Strong words but no explanation! I really dont think you should be saying such things without explaining or presenting evidence to back up what your saying!

Not sure what Mr Rankines motives are, he comes across quite a quiet and secritive person. I however must say that He left Dumbarton in better condition than when he arrived at the club. Was this mainly down to soaring property prices (at the time) and a bit of luck? That is the positive side of Mr Rankine, the negative has to be the alledged proxy and highly contrivertial shareholding at East Fife. The Scotsman (credible newspaper in my view) ran a big story a number of years ago about some child holding significant sharholding in East Fife believed to be on Mr Rankines behalf?

Not sure what his Livvy motive is, likely ££££ signs related but what have Livvy got to loose? What did Neil say this afternoon?

I fully sympathise with Livvys current situation despite always having a bee in my bonnet about the old Meadowbank Thistle situation. I would however say that the supporters club members walking out on the meeting does nothing for there credibility and just makes the situation look even more pathetic. Heckling the speakers etc would surely have been a stronger message to the idiot owner.

[Mikewn]

Strong, Strong words but no explanation! I really dont think you should be saying such things without explaining or presenting evidence to back up what your saying!

Not sure what Mr Rankines motives are, he comes across quite a quiet and secritive person. I however must say that He left Dumbarton in better condition than when he arrived at the club. Was this mainly down to soaring property prices (at the time) and a bit of luck? That is the positive side of Mr Rankine, the negative has to be the alledged proxy and highly contrivertial shareholding at East Fife. The Scotsman (credible newspaper in my view) ran a big story a number of years ago about some child holding significant sharholding in East Fife believed to be on Mr Rankines behalf?

Not sure what his Livvy motive is, likely ££££ signs related but what have Livvy got to loose? What did Neil say this afternoon?

I fully sympathise with Livvys current situation despite always having a bee in my bonnet about the old Meadowbank Thistle situation. I would however say that the supporters club members walking out on the meeting does nothing for there credibility and just makes the situation look even more pathetic. Heckling the speakers etc would surely have been a stronger message to the idiot owner.

I would be interested to hear any East Fife supporters views on what i've just posted (and i'm sure Livvy supporters would be very interested as well). Not sure if more information has ever come out over that old story and was it ever more than a rumour, never heard of any lawsuit against the Scotsman?

[jimbo]

Walking out was childish and unprofessional. If they want to help then they need to develop a thick skin. How can they hope to run a football club if they walk out the room every time someone says something they don't like ? How can they hope to influence people if they stomp out with a petted lip like a scolded two-year-old ?

They missed half of the meeting when more of the fans spoke and asked questions. How can they claim to speak for the fans if they aren't in the room to listen to what they say ? They missed Stephen Mulholland speaking a lot of sense but their egos couldn't stand it.

The small chance we have of saving the club was discussed without the "Trust" and LLSC being represented because they took the hump. I stayed because as a fan I want to hear of any chance there is to save the club. I don't care if Rankine makes a profit as long as the club is saved.

Angela Constance is in the position, although not able to get government funding, to knock heads together at the council to find a solution. Peter Johnston is leader of the SNP council and she is SNP MSP for the area and will have a bit of power over him.

The club have no money so if fans have the time and ability to help the club get on an even keel by working for nowt then what is wrong with that ? I saw a comment recently about how some clubs have volunteers on turnstyles and serveries to save their club money. Might have been AFC Wimbledon ?

There were still Trust folk in the room. Only 2 or 3 walked out. The vice chair was still there because he spoke later. I think they will hear everything that was proposed. I thought you stayed because you were very busy taking photographs. Stephen Mulholland said he was a Hearts fan before his impassioned speech in favour of Massone. (???) What does he know about anything?

[Guest zupa]

So what exactly has this meeting acheived ? .

The clocks ticking.

[RedV]

I would be interested to hear any East Fife supporters views on what i've just posted (and i'm sure Livvy supporters would be very interested as well). Not sure if more information has ever come out over that old story and was it ever more than a rumour, never heard of any lawsuit against the Scotsman?

It's hardly a secret that Rankine installed an 8 year-old girl relative at another club to circumvent SFL rules which rather inconveniently prevented him from being involved in the ownership of two clubs - it's already been mentioned a number of times in this thread alone. But that's just the kind of guy "Neil" is.

He also had his puppet Gemmill installed at Airdrie in cahoots with Barr the Parasite. I'll back up once again the Sergeant's "Strong, strong words": if Rankine is claiming to have "saved" Airdrieonians in some way ( ) he is a fucking liar.

[Airdrie76]

Strong, Strong words but no explanation! I really dont think you should be saying such things without explaining or presenting evidence to back up what your saying!

I presume he means that given Airdrie went under how could Rankine have saved them!? Quite simple really. Ballantyne was the one that bought Clydebanks place and formed the new Airdrie. If you need evidence try google, it's all there.

[jimbo]

So what exactly has this meeting acheived ? .

The clocks ticking.

For Livi FC, zilch. For Neil Rankine a public relations job during which I am sure he managed to impress some of the more gullible members of the support who would possibly have welcomed Saddam Hussein as long as he spoke £££.

Anybody who sat alongside Angelo Massone at a top able is not to be trusted. IMO

[Airdrie76]

It's hardly a secret that Rankine installed an 8 year-old girl relative at another club to circumvent SFL rules which rather inconveniently prevented him from being involved in the ownership of two clubs - it's already been mentioned a number of times in this thread alone. But that's just the kind of guy "Neil" is.

He also had his puppet Gemmill installed at Airdrie in cahoots with Barr the Parasite. I'll back up once again the Sergeant's "Strong, strong words": if Rankine is claiming to have "saved" Airdrieonians in some way ( ) he is a fucking liar.

Are we all sure that this 8 year girl and Gemmill aren't one and the same!?!

[the_russian]

Rankine is East Fife's major shareholder, though his shares are spread about in other peoples names (including the 10 year old lassie) and Derrick Brown was his man in charge, laterly replaced by Sid Collumbine.

Nobody knows what Rankine wants with East Fife but its certainly not for football reasons.

[Savage Henry]

I thought it was a pretty positive meeting with Angela Constance MSP speaking up about saving the club for the community.

MP in populist rhetoric shocker.

The main point Rankin was trying to get over was that Massone will need paid to leave the club but he is down the list of creditors. The Revenue and WLC are the ones who are forcing the issue so they should be dealt with first. Massone won't force administration so he will need to be around for a while until a spare £250,000 can be found to pay him off.

That quarter of a million could be problematic.

Fans who are lawyers, accountants, etc who are willing to work for nothing to save the club should come forward to be part of the initial group. Directors shouldn't be taking money out of the club, no more flashy hotels or cars, etc. Volunteers to work for the club as much as possible to reduce costs and create a new business model.

A new business model? You expect a first division club to exist entirely on volunteers? Seems to me that before any of that you need to release every single full time player and go part time, straight off the bat.

The stadium is a white elephant built for the SPL and hardly used. The council should maintain the stadium as they have groundsmen, painters, etc on their payroll already. They also need office space and meeting rooms so Almondvale could be theirs for that use and Livi only need to rent the pitch and dressing rooms when required. The stadium costs £300,000 a year to maintain which is too much for a 1st division team.

Well whose fault is that , precisely? The council should have nothing whatsoever to do with the stadium and should use their groundsmen, painters et al for what we pay our taxes for them to do, not backing up failed private enterprises.

Did I mention the "Trust" walked out half way through ??

Absolutely shocking. They have given up any right to future consultation by such a petty move.

Incidentally, less than two pages have come since the meeting. That, I fear, is indicative in itself.

[Guest]

Rankine is East Fife's major shareholder, though his shares are spread about in other peoples names (including the 10 year old lassie) and Derrick Brown was his man in charge, laterly replaced by Sid Collumbine.

Nobody knows what Rankine wants with East Fife but its certainly not for football reasons.

So I'm reading that Rankine said he wouldn't have gotten involved if he knew how bad it was in terms of debt, but now he's here, he'll help out. Did anyone (even for a fleeting second), believe a word of this?

The only way anyone will become involved is if the debt disappears. MacDougall will NOT take on £1.35 million pounds worth of debt. Not a chance. There are absolutely no assets to serve as security.

It all comes back to the stadium and whether or not the council buys the plan, or can themselves be bought (corruption in local government........surely not).

If the council choose to negotiate arrears with someone as bent as Massone, then they better be ready to change policy with every decent rent payer in the district.

As for the MSP who was present..........simply looking for some political mileage for herself..........totally self serving. She cannot go near the public purse, and she damn well knows it.

Even at £1.35mill, I reckon there's more to come.

The equally major disgrace is that any club with a reputation like Livingston's was allowed near any sort of debt raising facilities. Yet here they are talking about paying it back on the never never............again.

Rankine is in this for one thing, and one thing only..........the stadium.

I think there will be some creative accounting going as to who owes how much to who. Expect to see the sums of those involved (Rankine and Massone) seemingly inflated to way above what you'd consider reasonable (or possible). Guess who'd be expected to pay those sums to those individuals? Yep, the club. Who constructs the books down Livingston way? Yep, those will claim six figure sums.

Back in the Keane days, it was pretty common knowledge that there were two sets of books on the go at Livingston. I bet that hasn't changed one little bit.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Guest

[MCL]

There were still Trust folk in the room. Only 2 or 3 walked out. The vice chair was still there because he spoke later. I think they will hear everything that was proposed. I thought you stayed because you were very busy taking photographs. Stephen Mulholland said he was a Hearts fan before his impassioned speech in favour of Massone. (???) What does he know about anything?

I had all the photos I needed within the first half hour. I stayed the extra 90 minutes to hear the full meeting. I know I would have wondered what had been said if I had left an hour early and I wouldn't have the right to comment on what happened when I wasn't there.

Stephen Mulholland is one of the club's major sponsors and his speech wasn't so much in favour of Massone but to point out that if we followed the "Trust" request of withholding season ticket money then the club wouldn't survive due to lack of cash flow. He has always been up front about supporting Hearts and his example was that although he didn't like Vlad he still bought a season ticket every season because the club would suffer and not Vlad. Pretty much the same scenario at Livi.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

I had all the photos I needed within the first half hour. I stayed the extra 90 minutes to hear the full meeting. I know I would have wondered what had been said if I had left an hour early and I wouldn't have the right to comment on what happened when I wasn't there.

Stephen Mulholland is one of the club's major sponsors and his speech wasn't so much in favour of Massone but to point out that if we followed the "Trust" request of withholding season ticket money then the club wouldn't survive due to lack of cash flow. He has always been up front about supporting Hearts and his example was that although he didn't like Vlad he still bought a season ticket every season because the club would suffer and not Vlad. Pretty much the same scenario at Livi.

Most who didn't renew their tickets did so due to mistrust of the board NOT a request from the Trust!

[Guest Wall E]

Correct.

The Trust haven't ever asked supporters to withhold their season ticket money.

Surely though, even if every single season ticket holder from last season were to renew that the sum raised would make no serious inroads to the clubs current debt and the way Massone conducts his or the clubs business?

Edited July 4, 2009 by Wall E

[MCL]

Most who didn't renew their tickets did so due to mistrust of the board NOT a request from the Trust!

Well that's ok then. Stop the cash flow then bitch about staff not being paid

[jimbo]

I had all the photos I needed within the first half hour. I stayed the extra 90 minutes to hear the full meeting. I know I would have wondered what had been said if I had left an hour early and I wouldn't have the right to comment on what happened when I wasn't there.

Stephen Mulholland is one of the club's major sponsors and his speech wasn't so much in favour of Massone but to point out that if we followed the "Trust" request of withholding season ticket money then the club wouldn't survive due to lack of cash flow. He has always been up front about supporting Hearts and his example was that although he didn't like Vlad he still bought a season ticket every season because the club would suffer and not Vlad. Pretty much the same scenario at Livi.

When did the trust request withholding season ticket money? I must have missed that. Even if they had there were a lot more folk not buying season tickets than there are trust members.

Stephen Mulholland definitely said that we should stick with Massone. Is it not Stephen Mulholland's father who has sponsored Livi?

[jimbo]

Well that's ok then. Stop the cash flow then bitch about staff not being paid

Eh, I think that the season ticket money I paid last year was supposd to help pay the staff for this season. And if next year's season ticket money was needed to pay April/May/June staff wages then we were always going to be well and truly stuffed for the year ahead.

[phantoms-livi-lass]

Well that's ok then. Stop the cash flow then bitch about staff not being paid

The season tickets were due for renewal at the end of the season, So how did that affect the cash flow when the staff/ players were paid late during the whole season?

[Guest]

The season tickets were due for renewal at the end of the season, So how did that affect the cash flow when the staff/ players were paid late during the whole season?

So ST sales will be down significantly for the coming season........of that there is no doubt. Attendances will be lower too. The club will generate (on crowds of 1,500 at an average of £20 a skull) somewhere in the region of £60k a month. Other sponsorship will bring in something akin to £20k a month. Lets say the council reduce the rent (and take what comes with that) to £50k a year. On top of that there will be rates electricity etc etc. Probably 5k a month. If they have run up HMRC debts of £200k in a single year, then factor in £15k a month for that for next season........plus £12.5k a month in arrears payments. We will be getting precious close to half of the monthly income gone before we even look at staff wages, playing staff wages, Massone's expenses, service providers etc etc.

1,600 or so watched a competitive Livingston. It will be less this coming season. For the life of me, I fail to see how things are going to get anything but worse unless some drastic cuts are made.

If crowds fall to 1,200 then things will get much much worse. Lots of plans to re-structure debt, but nothing to slash costs. It ain't going to work.

It is still all about importing debt rather than cutting costs.

Edited July 4, 2009 by Guest