Livingston - all the threads merged

[AND180Y]

It's so incredibly frustrating that our future is in the hands of a such a stubborn person as Massone. While there's still doubt in my mind over potential takeover bids, I reckon we will survive if we can get past this hurdle.

You might well survive, but will you change?

[EdinburghPar1975]

Ambassadors, pray do tell?

When all this kicked off Massone asked for volunteers (the ambassadors) to come and help out, phone local businesses and communicate with the fans. I believe that one was quite vocal on LiviLions as he really wanted to believe that Massone was going to save them, but even he is struggling with whats happenning now.

[qos_75]

They may have been a well run club prior to being elected. Were they not in the 3rd division when they were paying Steve Tosh more than Aberdeen could?

They were also living within their means for the two seasons in the 3rd Division, prior to his involvement.

[AND180Y]

I dont know. Its all in the EPL rules apparently if you want to go look.

I dont know enough about Massone, or the test, to comment on that. Im willing to bet that you dont really either.

This is the Premier League's fit and proper person test.

DISQUALIFYING EVENTS:

A person shall be disqualified from acting as a director and no club shall be permitted to have any person acting as a director of that club if:

<LI>Either directly or indirectly he is involved in or has any power to determine or influence the management or administration of another club or Football League club

<LI>Either directly or indirectly he holds or acquires any Significant Interest in a club while he either directly or indirectly holds any interest in any class of shares of another club

<LI>He becomes prohibited by law from being a director

<LI>He is convicted on indictment of an offence set out in the Appendix 12 Schedule of Offences or he is convicted of a like offence by a competent court having jurisdiction outside England and Wales

<LI>He makes an Individual Voluntary Arrangement or becomes the subject of an Interim Bankruptcy Restriction Order, a Bankruptcy Restriction Order or a Bankruptcy Order

<LI>He is a director of a club which, while he has been a director of it, has suffered two or more unconnected events of insolvency

<LI>He has been a director of two or more clubs or clubs each of which, while he has been a director of them, has suffered an Event of Insolvency.

SCHEDULE OF OFFENCES:

• Conspiracy to defraud: Criminal Justice Act 1987, section 12
  
• Conspiracy to defraud: Common Law
  
• Corrupt transactions with (public) agents, corruptly accepting consideration: Prevention of Corruption Act 1906, section 1
  
• Insider dealing: Criminal Justice Act 1993, sections 52 and 61
  
• Public servant soliciting or accepting a gift: Public Bodies (Corrupt Practices) Act 1889, section 1
  
• Theft: Theft Act 1968, section 1
  
• Obtaining by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15
  
• Obtaining a money transfer by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 15A + B
  
• Obtaining a pecuniary advantage by deception: Theft Act 1968, section 16
  
• False accounting: Theft Act 1968, section 17
  
• False statements by Company Directors: Theft Act 1968, section 19
  
• Suppression of (company) documents: Theft Act 1968, section 20
  
• Retaining a wrongful credit: Theft Act 1968, section 24A
  
• Obtaining services by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 1
  
• Evasion of liability by deception: Theft Act 1978, section 2
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994 section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined) : Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument : Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  
• Cheating the Public Revenue/ Making false statements tending to defraud the public revenue: Common Law
  
• Punishment for fraudulent training: Companies Act 1985, section 458
  
• Penalty for fraudulent evasion of duty etc: Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, section 170
  
• Fraudulent evasion of VAT: Value Added Tax Act 1994, section 72
  
• Person subject to a Banning order (as defined): Football (Disorder) Act 2000, Schedule 1
  
• Forgery: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 1
  
• Copying a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 2
  
• Using a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 3
  
• Using a copy of a false instrument: Forgery and Counterfeiting Act 1981, section 4
  

[AND180Y]

When all this kicked off Massone asked for volunteers (the ambassadors) to come and help out, phone local businesses and communicate with the fans. I believe that one was quite vocal on LiviLions as he really wanted to believe that Massone was going to save them, but even he is struggling with whats happenning now.

Thanks

[Ivo den Bieman]

Gretna's third division side included the likes of Main, Deuchar, David Bingham, Chris Innes, Ryan Baldaccino, Bryan Gilfillan, and Tosh, who did move for daft wages from Aberdeen. They were full timers on big money on sub-800 gates.

Before Mileson showed up it was basically aworthy but hardly dangerous XI of ex-Carlisle United players and Unibond league journeymen.

[qos_75]

These fit and proper persons tests are good to a point. However, not every club will go into administration because there is a shady character at the helm. Clubs and Board members can bring about their own demise through well meaning, but ultimately poor business decisions, even if they are honourable people. So whilst they will protect the club from your Massone types, they will not protect them from a poor, run off the mill, board or chairman.

[EdinburghLivi]

You might well survive, but will you change?

With responsible spending the main concern and not conquering the SPL's top three, I'd imagine so.

[AND180Y]

With responsible spending the main concern and not conquering the SPL's top three, I'd imagine so.

So how do you hope to see things panning out, who would you like on the board of the club?

[speckled tangerine]

This has been done to death so many times, but at the end of the day 'many' supporters can think what they like. At the end of the day we didn't have 'many'.

You can talk about breaking ranks, but there was no union. Meadowbank supporters were about as divided as anyone for years. Three buses to away games carrying less than 100 folk for a start.

There was a simple choice at the time and I would suggest it was defined around whether you thought Livingston was going to be a continuation of Meadowbank Thistle. My view is that it is/was, so there is no new club.

Livingston took to the field with the same manager, largely the same players and same officials as ended the season as Meadowbank. We even played in the same ground for a good while.

Totally different to Clydebank/Airdrie, for example.

You have your opinion and you are entitled to it, but it's just that. An opinion. It's not gospel truth.

utter pish!

fair enough the supporter's club and the brake club were hardly bussom buddies - but they were largely united towards a common aim; To keep Thistle out of livingston and the history books.

As for the players, i think it was pretty much the case just like the fans. Stand ten square behind the blobby regime or find a new club. Sure, livingston enjoyed a pretence of continuity by claiming the honours of Thistle and nonsense like John McGachie scoring the most goals in "livingston's" history, but temper that with a new colours (all black), a new badge, a new ground and a new name in a new fucking town there was no way this was any continuation. Sorry to go off topic but that post really pissed me off.

Guys like you make me so full of joy that this frankenstein experiment has failed utterly miserably. Enjoy mourning your unloved team.

p.s. Same manager. true. remember Terry Christie was also ousted by Hunter and instead that total buffoon Leishman evetually ended up in charge.

Edited July 28, 2009 by speckled tangerine

[LLD]

utter pish!

fair enough the supporter's club and the brake club were hardly bussom buddies - but they were largely united towards a common aim; To keep Thistle out of livingston and the history books.

As for the players, i think it was pretty much the case just like the fans. Stand ten square behind the blobby regime or find a new club. Sure, livingston enjoyed a pretence of continuity by claiming the honours of Thistle and nonsense like John McGachie scoring the most goals in "livingston's" history, but temper that with a new colours (all black), a new badge, a new ground and a new name in a new fucking town there was no way this was any continuation. Sorry to go off topic but that post really pissed me off.

Guys like you make me so full of joy that this frankenstein experiment has failed utterly miserably. Enjoy mourning your unloved team.

p.s. Same manager. true. remember Terry Christie was also ousted by Hunter and instead that total buffoon Leishman evetually ended up in charge.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

I have to say that I find it ironic that you now support a team that used to be called something else, played in different colours etc.

Edited July 28, 2009 by LLD

[speckled tangerine]

point taken. fair enough. I'd still be supporting "my" team however and not my father's if this whole sorry episode hadn't occurred. I'll bet Bill Hunter is pishing himself laughing.

Edited July 28, 2009 by speckled tangerine

[tamthebam]

It's so incredibly frustrating that our future is in the hands of a such a stubborn person as Massone. While there's still doubt in my mind over potential takeover bids, I reckon we will survive if we can get past this hurdle.

I can still remember the Thistle Action Group raising 60 grand to buy out "Blobby" Hunter's shares to prevent Meadowbank Thistle's demise and it being rejected out of hand- Hunter was certainly a stubborn person..

I found interesting the posts about "fit and proper people" being in charge of clubs because a lot of people considered Hunter to be neither a fit nor proper person at the time of Meadowbank being franchised to Livingston..

When Massone took over from Flynn I always wondered what attraction a first division football club had for an Italian lawyer and thought it was slightly dodgy (maybe Scottish football should beware of Italian lawyers- Geovanni di Stefano anyone?) and things have come to pass. I ,of course, have an agenda - I'm quite happy to see Livingston F.C. die off and prove a point stated back in 1995 that Meadowbank Thistle should never have been moved from the club's base in Edinburgh against the wishes of the fans.

This is not to say I don't have a little bit sympathy with the fans of Livingston FC (or at least those fans who weren't Meadowbank fans before..!) as I've gone through the experience of seeing my club fold (I also like to see Clydebank Juniors, Gretna 2008, AFC Wimbledon, Scarborough Athletic etc do well) and I wouldn't mind if a club was formed from the ashes of the current Livingston FC calling itself something like "Livingston 2008" as long as it didn't pretend to have anything to do with the original Meadowbank Thistle. And I'll just repeat the point that Livingston United Juniors have played in the town of Livingston years before Livingston FC came along, and could certainly do with some help and support from any ex-Livi fans who would be at a loss as to what to do on a Saturday should the Almondvale mob fold.

[Guest MalckyB]

I'm polishing up ma dancing shoes for Wednesday

Call yourself a football fan?...You sir are a total cock!....just the sort that the fine game of football can do without.

[jay_7]

Call yourself a football fan?...You sir are a total cock!....just the sort that the fine game of football can do without.

Why? While I do feel limited sympathy towards genuine Livi fans, I for one will not miss the club at all.

[Clyde 78]

Call yourself a football fan?...You sir are a total cock!....just the sort that the fine game of football can do without.

Agreed, never know why football fans like seeing other clubs in trouble. The only people who suffer are the fans, directors move on and find another club but the fans are left with nothing. A generation of fans at Livingston will know little of the history prior to the move to Livingston and they are that generations team.

Hopefully Livingston will get through this, even if you have to do a Clyde and accept that you will be moving down the leagues for a few seasons.

[EdinburghPar1975]

I have to admit that I really thought that there would have been some kind of rant or compromise attempt from the Massone camp.

I genuinely fear for Livi tomorrow, if he's going to walk away he's taking his time getting out!

[Swampy]

Agreed, never know why football fans like seeing other clubs in trouble.

Because Livingston have been cheating for years while their smirking idiot fans lap it up.

The only people who suffer are the fans, directors move on and find another club but the fans are left with nothing.

And the unpaid creditors, who are left with something very close to nothing.

A generation of fans at Livingston will know little of the history prior to the move to Livingston and they are that generations team.

If this generation's getting to take the credit they can also carry some of the can for the shocking way it's been run - a way that received no opposition until it was clear that the quote-unquote money ran out.

[MCL]

I have to admit that I really thought that there would have been some kind of rant or compromise attempt from the Massone camp.

I genuinely fear for Livi tomorrow, if he's going to walk away he's taking his time getting out!

I'm confident he will do the deal and get a bit extra as a creditor when the CVA is sorted.

[MCL]

If this generation's getting to take the credit they can also carry some of the can for the shocking way it's been run - a way that received no opposition until it was clear that the quote-unquote money ran out.

That's nonsense and I think you know it. How can young fans who know of nothing else but supporting their team have any idea of how the club is being run ?