Livingston - all the threads merged

[ATLIS]

1 hour ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

Other than Odin Bailey or Julien Serrano have any loans in our return to the premiership actually been really worthwhile? I think it's kind of clear Martindale has avoided loans recently due to the lack of success of previous ones. 

Over the years it's easy to say Martindale has got more signings right than wrong however I think in recent years our signings haven't been as good. This could well be down to increasing budget constraints but there certainly has been an increase in the number of players that just haven't cut it.

As mentioned above the fact Parkes got his contract extended absolutely baffled me.

It was a clause based extension, which he met. 1 year deal, extended by 2 on that trigger.

[LiviLion]

8 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

I'm actually less annoyed by his tactics and more by his player selection. What he's trying to do can work but only if he picks the correct players.

This is the main thing for me, along with the recruitment for defence. We clearly worked on coming up with a system that would make us hard to beat and helped lessen the impact of losing Nouble. It looked pretty good at the start of the season. The system was fine, and with better back-up options at CB we wouldn't be heavily relying on our main back 3 staying fit. However those injury woes don't excuse the freezing out of Stephen Kelly, IMO early season we looked our best with Kelly and Nouble in behind Anderson, but for some reason Kelly can't get a look in - and it's not as if everyone is just playing too well for him to get a chance.

Looking at the defence, 3/5 at the back? Absolutely fine by me. However, Devlin is pretty much exclusively known for being injured, and Obileye was injured for something like 4 months(?) earlier in the year, so it would make sense for us to have a lot of CBs to choose from, we now have:

• Ayo Obileye - Clearly our best choice at CB despite being initially signed to play as a defensive mid
• Mikey Devlin - Started the season looking superb, but for me has looked dodgy since coming back from injury
• Luiyi de Lucas - I like him, but he's very hit and miss
• Tom Parkes - I was quite excited about him signing having seen a lot of him at Exeter, but he's been injured most of the time and is probably done at this level
• Michael Nottingham - Also always injured, and personally haven't been too convinced by what I've seen so far anyway
• Calan Ledingham - A child who's probably not worth mentioning, but I'd still have him over...
• Sean Kelly - Was a good stop gap in defensive mid for a while, has always looked shaky at CB and LB but for some reason we still see him a lot

Our 3 first choice players (1 has been injured most of this year, 1 has been injured most of his career), two perma-crocks, a child, and Sean Kelly. Not including the likes of Montano and Welch-Hayes who can fill in at CB, but in an ideal world you don't need to grab players to fill in when you've got 5 senior CBs signed; we either need to rethink the intensity of the training or stop signing defenders with glass legs. Really at a loss as to why we sent Boyes out on loan, he never looked top class and admittedly I've not been keeping up with how he's getting on but I'd still have him as a better CB option than everyone below de Lucas in the above list.

 

That turned into a bit of an inane rambling rant, on a brighter note we're absolutely pumping County by 4 clear goals on Saturday. Maybe.

[Freedom Farter]

11 hours ago, ATLIS said:

Sangare has been iffy for me so far, far too rash.

I rate him. He bursts forward really well. His winner against Hibs, the Joe Hart sending off against Celtic he caused and the penalty he won against Killie all showed that. I really value ball winners, especially in centre mid, and Sangare does that - he tackles well. His passing is decent, he can dribble and he's got a great long range shot. He wins headers. His only downsides have been an apparent lack of stamina and his defensive positioning. Both those issues could've already been well on their way to being ironed out by now had he been starting most matches. Yet Martindale has instead just dipped him in and out the team. It's frustrating how many players Martindale does that to, drops them for no reason, thus making it harder for them to build consistent form and momentum. Unless its Sean Kelly, of course, who's started each of our last 8 matches since he returned from injury. 

[Freedom Farter]

Nottingham was an ever present for Accrington in 21/22. Then in summer '22 he had an operation on an ankle tendon which kept him out all of last season until the final couple of months. It was his ankle tendon again which kept him out for us at the start of this season. Martindale has spoken of the need to manage Nottingham's training load in light of this ankle tendon issue. Devlin has a history of serious injury although to my knowledge he's not carrying any ongoing issues.

Folk have asked how Welch-Hayes can be developed given he's not a young player. The "development" here means adjustment to a significantly higher level than the player has played at before. Obileye and Nouble both followed the same path, non-league England to Scottish Championship then to Livi first team. There's also the example of De Lucas. Martindale first spotted De Lucas playing non-league in Spain and told the player to get experience at a higher level before coming to Livi. De Lucas did that by spending a year in the Finnish top tier before coming here. After signing for us, it then took a while longer before De Lucas was judged ready.

Sangare is raw but ready now. He's similar to the development stage Fitzwater was at when first signed -  a bit older but without many senior matches behind him so still inexperienced.

Lawal is effectively still a youth player. Teto will be the the same if a work permit can be gained in January.

Lloyd's contract expires in January and he's been useful cover given Montano's first injury, suspension, and now second injury.

[Livi La Vida Loca]

1 hour ago, Freedom Farter said:

Sangare is raw but ready now.

I really like the look of Sangare at times however he seems very laid back and not quite up to the expected energy level yet that we've come to expect from Livi players. 

Martindale obviously rates him as he's started some big games however he does seem to be at him constantly from the first whistle.

[ATLIS]

6 hours ago, Freedom Farter said:

Nottingham was an ever present for Accrington in 21/22. Then in summer '22 he had an operation on an ankle tendon which kept him out all of last season until the final couple of months. It was his ankle tendon again which kept him out for us at the start of this season. Martindale has spoken of the need to manage Nottingham's training load in light of this ankle tendon issue. Devlin has a history of serious injury although to my knowledge he's not carrying any ongoing issues.

Folk have asked how Welch-Hayes can be developed given he's not a young player. The "development" here means adjustment to a significantly higher level than the player has played at before. Obileye and Nouble both followed the same path, non-league England to Scottish Championship then to Livi first team. There's also the example of De Lucas. Martindale first spotted De Lucas playing non-league in Spain and told the player to get experience at a higher level before coming to Livi. De Lucas did that by spending a year in the Finnish top tier before coming here. After signing for us, it then took a while longer before De Lucas was judged ready.

Sangare is raw but ready now. He's similar to the development stage Fitzwater was at when first signed -  a bit older but without many senior matches behind him so still inexperienced.

Lawal is effectively still a youth player. Teto will be the the same if a work permit can be gained in January.

Lloyd's contract expires in January and he's been useful cover given Montano's first injury, suspension, and now second injury.

I think you're giving Martindale too much credit there, he isn't out spotting players in those leagues. It's agents that know we have an open door for trials in the summer and sometimes in the winter. We get 100+ trialists in and out during those periods yearly. 

[Livi]

2 hours ago, ATLIS said:

I think you're giving Martindale too much credit there, he isn't out spotting players in those leagues. It's agents that know we have an open door for trials in the summer and sometimes in the winter. We get 100+ trialists in and out during those periods yearly. 

Has Martindale not alluded to using some software to do his scouting? 

[ATLIS]

1 minute ago, Livi said:

Has Martindale not alluded to using some software to do his scouting? 

Yeah, WyScout. I think he uses that for more specific players though. When he needs a first team vital player replaced, no doubt he also does it with the players in on trial too but he's talked about the 'eye test' for a trialists a lot.
 

He was open enough about it with Luiyi, told him he needed more experience and he went and got it. Another one it happened with was David Cancola, when he scored the winner against us at the Mac for Ross County he was a bit arsey about it.

[Cptn Hooch]

On 29/11/2023 at 02:32, Freedom Farter said:

I rate him. He bursts forward really well. His winner against Hibs, the Joe Hart sending off against Celtic he caused and the penalty he won against Killie all showed that. I really value ball winners, especially in centre mid, and Sangare does that - he tackles well. His passing is decent, he can dribble and he's got a great long range shot. He wins headers. His only downsides have been an apparent lack of stamina and his defensive positioning. Both those issues could've already been well on their way to being ironed out by now had he been starting most matches. Yet Martindale has instead just dipped him in and out the team. It's frustrating how many players Martindale does that to, drops them for no reason, thus making it harder for them to build consistent form and momentum. Unless its Sean Kelly, of course, who's started each of our last 8 matches since he returned from injury. 

The thing with Kelly is he's Mr steady...in terms of stats he appears to be one of our most consistent performers over the last couple of seasons and that's across a number of positions. Would I prefer to see someone else at LCB? Certainly and I'm sure Martindale is the same but I can understand his desire to have him in the team as he's a very Livi type player. Doesn't do anything amazing and (compared to other players who are playing in their natural positions) doesn't make many huge errors

Edited November 30, 2023 by Cptn Hooch

[Freedom Farter]

7 hours ago, ATLIS said:

I think you're giving Martindale too much credit there, he isn't out spotting players in those leagues. It's agents that know we have an open door for trials in the summer and sometimes in the winter. We get 100+ trialists in and out during those periods yearly. 

Sure, you're right, "spotted" was the wrong word. He decided upon De Lucas after De Lucas had been brought to him by an agent, as you say.

[Freedom Farter]

10 hours ago, Cptn Hooch said:

The thing with Kelly is he's Mr steady...in terms of stats he appears to be one of our most consistent performers over the last couple of seasons and that's across a number of positions. Would I prefer to see someone else at LCB? Certainly and I'm sure Martindale is the same but I can understand his desire to have him in the team as he's a very Livi type player. Doesn't do anything amazing and (compared to other players who are playing in their natural positions) doesn't make many huge errors

I think he has made important errors. If we consider the St Mirren goal last Saturday, Devlin and Nottingham had pushed out together and Kiltie would've been offside had Kelly moved up with them. There's then George's parry which has rightly been criticised but a more nimble player would not have flicked that into their own net how Kelly did. Away to Dundee, Martindale complained of Holt losing the ball to Rudden prior to Sean Kelly fouling Rudden and McCowan scoring the free kick. Holt was then punished by being dropped for the next match (home to Rangers). Yet Kelly's role in that free kick concession was surely more relevant. Rudden didn't actually have possession yet, the ball had ran free from his challenge on Holt. Had Kelly not hesitated he'd have got to that loose ball first. Instead he let Rudden get there first then fouled Rudden, needlessly so given Devlin was covering.

When we played a 4-3-3 Sean Kelly could do a job as the central holder in the midfield. He had a pair of dynamos either side of him to do the pressing and tackling so he could just play as an anchor in front of the centre backs, focusing on his positioning. Being the anchor in a three also meant more time in possession as its the two advanced centre mids ahead of the anchor who the opposition press and mark. We've used a 4-3-2-1 a few times this season and it requires a central holder in a midfield three. Sean Kelly could play there. However, we're more often going with a two man central midfield, either a 3-4-2-1 or a 3-4-1-2.. That takes out the holder/anchor role. I think Holt, Shinnie, Sangare and Pittman are all more suited to a two man central midfield than Sean Kelly is. 

Sean Kelly is a good footballer but I'm concerned he's not quite as good (or adaptable) as Martindale believes and this might be costing us. 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Freedom Farter

[LIVIFOREVER]

Not that i'm saying Se Kelly shouldn't be dropped, but Devlin made a few fuckups last weekend too, and some slack passes, the one which Shamal had to come do a sliding block was particularly bad, not seeing the St Mirren player when he knocked it back to Shamal. 

[Freedom Farter]

11 minutes ago, LIVIFOREVER said:

Not that i'm saying Se Kelly shouldn't be dropped, but Devlin made a few fuckups last weekend too, and some slack passes, the one which Shamal had to come do a sliding block was particularly bad, not seeing the St Mirren player when he knocked it back to Shamal. 

Definitely and plenty of the squad have been underperforming, I'm not meaning to scapegoat Sean Kelly. Also I'll be delighted if my current opinion is proven to be absolute shite (if it isn't already) and any time he's on the pitch he has my full backing like every Livi player.

[Livi]

16 minutes ago, Freedom Farter said:

Also I'll be delighted if my current opinion is proven to be absolute shite (if it isn't already)

[LIVIFOREVER]

2 hours ago, Livi said:

Thing is, we all can have different opinions, and sometimes emotions run high in disagreements, but we all want what's best for Livi, and the club being in the top flight for years to come. Not sure of what alternative solution would have us still doing that if we got rid of everyone that got us here, in management and boardroom level.

Some are on here telling us of all the wrongs, but offering very little solutions, other than wanting them gone. Who's there to come in and take over and not screw us over again, all i know is the current set up is the same one that got us promoted and kept us here 6 seasons.

 

 

[ATLIS]

Dundee apparently interested in Penrice

[Livi La Vida Loca]

29 minutes ago, ATLIS said:

Dundee apparently interested in Penrice

I think he can do better than Dundee but I am fully expecting him to be away in the summer because his contract is up. 

[Livi]

19 minutes ago, Livi La Vida Loca said:

I think he can do better than Dundee but I am fully expecting him to be away in the summer because his contract is up. 

I think he would be away in January if it was down to him be interesting to see if Livi let him

[Freedom Farter]

Anyone remember Livi 0-2 Dundee? It was the key match in our season so far. It began Dundee's ascent up the league and our descent down it. Montano's sending off was crucial but I want to highlight what happened before that.

Martindale picked a stinking team for that game. It was a 3-4-2-1. He actually got it very right with Montano at left centre back who was MotM until his red card. However, Sean Kelly at centre mid ahead of Shinnie, Pittman and Sangare was an abysmal choice. Then the two attacking mids were Nouble inside left and Bradley inside right. I've gone over at length before why that inside left attacking mid position is the worst place you can play Nouble. It stations him exactly where the opposition find it easiest to deal with him. Then Bradley, firstly he shouldn't have been randomly chucked into the starting line up having hardly featured prior to that match. The idea was for him to playmake centrally and for McKay to overlap on his right. Except Bradley hasn't the confidence and composure to playmake (only Stephen Kelly and Shinnie do in the squad). He was so lost in that role and then subbed soon after half time.

Had Martindale picked the right team we'd have been winning and Montano wouldn't have been so wound up. Even if he'd still got himself sent off, holding onto a lead would've seen us probably concede an equaliser at worst and still get a draw.

We should've been playing 3-4-1-2 that day. Have Nouble and Anderson as a front pairing. That was done for all of 5 minutes at the end of the recent St Mirren match and they almost combined to score. They compliment each other perfectly, Anderson a "no.9" who prefers to stay high and central, Nouble more of a second striker who likes to drop off or drift wide. Why the f**k Martindale has not been playing them as a duo each week, only he can tell us.

You have Stephen Kelly behind them. If he's unavailable you use a different style of attacking mid - Pittman or Sangare, less creativity compared to Stephen Kelly but more thrust. At centre mid you have Holt alongside either deep playmaker Shinnie or if you need more defensive bite, Pittman or Sangare.

Right wing back is Brandon or if you want a more attacking option, this is where you play Bradley. He could be like Lawless used to be for us, a left footed right wing back. 

McKay should've been converted into a forward, able to switch in for Nouble or Anderson if needed. Playing in a front two would allow him to drift into high wide spaces where he could make the most of his pace. His lack of defensive ability at wing back cost us, especially away to Killie. Don't play him there.

The players are good enough. Martindale just needs to pick the correct ones in the correct places.

[Scrutinizer]

Still posters on here with rose tinted glasses syndrome, praising Martingale's  signings and lone deals

I totally agree  with Atlis assessment on these duds. He's coming round to my way of thinking

Trust me here! !!  I will reiterate my thought s on the useless midfield that will be the downfall of Livi,.

I don't care what Pittman's done in the past he's done at this level , the and the quicker Martindale See's this the better

I don't care what Martindale thinks of Shinne he's useless at this level

Stephen Kelly will need to show a lot more willingness, and alertness,to make up for his  lack off pace

 Sangare, Guthrie,Shaun Kelly,Bradley, were never the standard needed for the Premiership

Holt  holds down  a roll that's insignificant ,and brings nothing to the attack,and causes endless free kicks

Nouuble had  us all fooled ,great for  3 or 4 months ,and then totally crashed,he's had plenty of time since his injury to impress

Penrice,Montano,and Anderson are the only players with  any ability when on form 

So there is the problem!!! ,no Creative midfield runners,player's that simply  can't play in these positions

Martindale's  has no attacking style,his main focus is containing  the opposition, stringing 7 players along the back,lack of belief  in the players or his setup.