Livingston - all the threads merged

[EdinburghLivi]

Full time?

I imagine a statement will be made on Monday.

[Jay Silverheels]

What difference does it make if its Livi or Airdrie in the First Division?

Both are cheats!

I take it by your post that even when Airdrie supporters bring up a legitimate point, it should automatically be discounted because their team are cheats. Wonderful powers of reasoning.

I'm glad you're not a judge.

The fans of most clubs seem to be in agreement here; the whole sordid affair was badly mismanaged by the SFL. It's not Livingston supporters that people are complaining about, it's the handling of the fiasco by the administrator/Rankine/McDougall/SFL. Basically, the Livi Business Plan revolves around staying in the First Division this season. Rankine and the administrator made that clear. It's that or they'll take their ball and go home, leaving the SFL with a 9-team division days away from the start of the season. What a PR fiasco that would be.

I dread to think what would happen to Airdrie if they were promoted this late in the day. We simply do not have the team to be anything other than the whipping boys of the First Division. It would be unfair on Airdrie and Cowdenbeath both if they were promoted at this stage. Probably promoted to come back down again. Most Airdrie supporters don't want that.

But sure, ignore the logic and the facts of the situation, and rant and rave about cheating Airdrie all you want. Discount what Airdrie fans have to say because they're nothing but cheats. Ignore the points they raise. Laugh when Airdrie fans point out that Airdrieonians were not afforded such preferential treatment when they were on the verge of extinction. Carry on. It doesn't stop us having an opinion, and it doesn't stop the majority of posters on here understanding and agreeing with the points we make. Nor us with them.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Jay Silverheels

[LLD]

No matter what the punishment we'll get on with it.

We can argue till the cows come home about the whys and wherefores but we won't be relegated and the reason is that we would have (potentially) a right of appeal which would delay the start of the season and that ain't going to happen.

This has clearly stemmed from the vested interest of Jim Ballantyne, someone who is no stranger to circumventing the SFL rules and conventions.

[The Old Northerner]

We can argue till the cows come home about the whys and wherefores but we won't be relegated and the reason is that we would have (potentially) a right of appeal which would delay the start of the season and that ain't going to happen.

The question of Livvy's existence, which isn't fully concluded, hasn't delayed the start of the season

[Jay Silverheels]

No matter what the punishment we'll get on with it.

We can argue till the cows come home about the whys and wherefores but we won't be relegated and the reason is that we would have (potentially) a right of appeal which would delay the start of the season and that ain't going to happen.

This has clearly stemmed from the vested interest of Jim Ballantyne, someone who is no stranger to circumventing the SFL rules and conventions.

I guess both you and Captain Sensible are in agreement then - Airdrie and Livingston are cheats.

Just as a matter of interest, which rules and conventions (plural in both instances) did Ballantyne circumvent? 21.7? 51B? 70?

If I recall correctly, Clydebank were in financial straits, and they were offered up to the highest bidder, lock, stock, and league membership.

Edited August 1, 2009 by Jay Silverheels

[DeeTillEhDeh]

No matter what the punishment we'll get on with it.

We can argue till the cows come home about the whys and wherefores but we won't be relegated and the reason is that we would have (potentially) a right of appeal which would delay the start of the season and that ain't going to happen.

This has clearly stemmed from the vested interest of Jim Ballantyne, someone who is no stranger to circumventing the SFL rules and conventions.

I actually don't believe that demotion should ever have been an option. The punishment should have been either expulsion because you could not fulfill your fixtures or a points deduction because you have gone into administration.

Demotion for me should be because of illegal activities or non-compliance with league standards. There was more of case for demotion in the Kachloul case than here.

Edited August 1, 2009 by DeeTillEhDeh

[Rovers_Lad]

I imagine a statement will be made on Monday.

Thanks mate.Been hard work trying to get an answer

If whats being said that Livi will be relegated to the 2nd division and McDougal and Rankine will walk away if thats the case my question will be irrelavant

[LLD]

I guess both you and Captain Sensible are in agreement then - Airdrie and Livingston are cheats.

Just as a matter of interest, which rules and conventions (plural in both instances) did Ballantyne circumvent? 21.7? 51B? 70?

It's not as simple as 'Livi are cheats'.

Our current debt was run up by a madman who was engaged in illegal business practices - before that it was perfectly manageable.

No one at Livingston FC has benefitted by one iota through this so-called cheating, in fact it's probably the opposite.

And define cheating... is borrowing money cheating? Should overdrafts be banned for football clubs?

Is borrowing money you have no realistic means of paying back cheating? If so, there are several other examples of cheats in the First Division.

I am not suggesting that the way Livingston has operated is correct. In fact I am ashamed of it. But poor financial management and over ambition is rife in Scottish football.

[Jay Silverheels]

"76.2 The Management Committee shall also have full power to deal with as it thinks fit, including

power to deduct championship points before or during a season and/or to impose a player

registration embargo on any club guilty of conduct contrary to the interests of the League and

its member clubs or any registered player or former registered player, or potentially likely to

prejudice the orderly progress of the League Championship and/or the League Challenge Cup

competition in any season. Such conduct, for the avoidance of doubt, may include a club in or

going into Administration, Liquidation, Receivership, Sequestration or any other insolvency

procedure by whatever means or having a Judicial Factor appointed to its undertaking. For the

further avoidance of doubt, a club in or going into any such procedure will remain responsible

for the purposes of this Rule for the conduct of its undertaking by any Administrator, Liquidator,

Receiver, Trustee in Sequestration, Judicial Factor or other such officer appointed to it."

"Livingston FC Ltd is hopelessly insolvent, without any discernible cash flow, and in need of an immediate cash injection," McGruther said"

[Jay Silverheels]

It's not as simple as 'Livi are cheats'.

Our current debt was run up by a madman who was engaged in illegal business practices - before that it was perfectly manageable.

No one at Livingston FC has benefitted by one iota through this so-called cheating, in fact it's probably the opposite.

And define cheating... is borrowing money cheating? Should overdrafts be banned for football clubs?

Is borrowing money you have no realistic means of paying back cheating? If so, there are several other examples of cheats in the First Division.

I am not suggesting that the way Livingston has operated is correct. In fact I am ashamed of it. But poor financial management and over ambition is rife in Scottish football.

I am not arguing that Massone was batshit crazy, but can you not see that by signing players which he could not afford to pay, thereby incurring huge debts, Livingston F.C. benefitted by retaining their place in the First Division? If Livingston had lived within its means, they would have been forced to sign players on a lower pay scale. This would possibly have meant lower-calibre players than those that took the field last season. Would they have survived the drop? I guess we'll never know.

On another note, if Airdrie had not hit something of a purple patch, we may have been relegated automatically, and then it would have been Clyde in the paper today bemoaning the fact that Livi were given preferential treatment. Any team other than Airdrie, those damn cheaty cheaters, and the comments would have been treated with a little credibility. As it is, it's Airdrie, and they're just a bunch of cheats, so their opinions don't count.

So, I'll ask again, which rules and conventions did Jim Ballantyne circumvent?

[Guest]

It's not as simple as 'Livi are cheats'.

Our current debt was run up by a madman who was engaged in illegal business practices - before that it was perfectly manageable.

No one at Livingston FC has benefitted by one iota through this so-called cheating, in fact it's probably the opposite.

And define cheating... is borrowing money cheating? Should overdrafts be banned for football clubs?

Is borrowing money you have no realistic means of paying back cheating? If so, there are several other examples of cheats in the First Division.

I am not suggesting that the way Livingston has operated is correct. In fact I am ashamed of it. But poor financial management and over ambition is rife in Scottish football.

LLD, we both know that Livvy have spent their entire existance seeking to gain a competitive advantage in a league table environment by spending money to enhance their position, and then choosing non payment of the debt without footballing penalties as their way of doing business. It has bought you SPL time as well as a CIS Cup win...........neither of which would have been "achieved" but for the power of the phantom chequebook. That, in most people's eyes, is distilled down to the word "cheating". By that definition, Livingston are pathalogical cheaters. Now, ultimately it can be argued that the support are innocents in this. Fine. But the presence in the SPL and the carving on a club's name on a trophy simply has to be determined by some element of fair play. Livingston have singularly failed to hold ethics, integrity and fair play as foundation stones of how to go about business. That profound sense of injustice has brought us to where we are today. You already know that existing debts will not be honoured. I think most outside Livingston are a wee bit cynical as to exactly when it is that the new honest and morality ridden Livingston will come into force. As of today, it still doesn't exist.

[EdinburghLivi]

The club didn't choose to not pay debts, Madsone did. The club is so much more than simply Madsone as proven by the players and staff who weren't paid/paid late for months on end, still staying at the club through loyalty.

Edited August 1, 2009 by EdinburghLivi

[LLD]

LLD, we both know that Livvy have spent their entire existance seeking to gain a competitive advantage in a league table environment by spending money to enhance their position, and then choosing non payment of the debt without footballing penalties as their way of doing business. It has bought you SPL time as well as a CIS Cup win...........neither of which would have been "achieved" but for the power of the phantom chequebook. That, in most people's eyes, is distilled down to the word "cheating". By that definition, Livingston are pathalogical cheaters. Now, ultimately it can be argued that the support are innocents in this. Fine. But the presence in the SPL and the carving on a club's name on a trophy simply has to be determined by some element of fair play. Livingston have singularly failed to hold ethics, integrity and fair play as foundation stones of how to go about business. That profound sense of injustice has brought us to where we are today. You already know that existing debts will not be honoured. I think most outside Livingston are a wee bit cynical as to exactly when it is that the new honest and morality ridden Livingston will come into force. As of today, it still doesn't exist.

By carrying debt that they cannot pay there are other 'cheats' out there. Or are you suggesting that it's only cheating if you go into administration?

Dunfermline Athletic have been scraping along for years paying people late and chancing their arm. Everyone knows that and there's businesses you won't deal with them anymore because they are bad payers. They will never be able to trade out of their current debt so you could argue they have spent money they don't have to gain a competitive advantage.

Some folk could suggest that your own club dodged along for years spending extra on your team when other clubs spent money on their grounds (not necessarily referring to Livi here before you start!) to meet SPL ground criteria.

I don't like the way my club has been operated until now, I suspect you know that, but debt and poor financial management is endemic in Scottish football.

Edited August 2, 2009 by LLD

[Guest]

By carrying debt that they cannot pay there are other 'cheats' out there. Or are you suggesting that it's only cheating if you go into administration?

Dunfermline Athletic have been scraping along for years paying people late and chancing their arm. Everyone knows that and there's businesses you won't deal with them anymore because they are bad payers. They will never be able to trade out of their current debt so you could argue they have spent money they don't have to gain a competitive advantage.

Some folk could suggest that your own club dodged along for years spending extra on your team when other clubs spent money on their grounds (not necessarily referring to Livi here before you start!) to meet SPL ground criteria.

I don't like the way my club has been operated until now, I suspect you know that, but debt and poor financial management is endemic in Scottish football.

It's common place but it is not endemic. As to my own club..............every single penny of debt paid back in full. It is hard to argue with that.........so there's really no point to be made or discussion to be had on that subject.

Look, Dunfermline are still there, and as far as I know, are servicing their debt (if not reducing it). Livingston bumped the MTFC creditors is 94, and set off with a completely clean slate, and had no ground to acquire.........every taxpayer paid for it............and despite that, in ten brief years, they ran up 10 million pounds worth of debt, and ruined a not so bright lottery winner. Despite having everything served up to them on a silver platter, your club performed in an accelerated binge of hedonism that no-one else has come close to matching. To escape scot free from that mess and leave many (including you and me) creditors decimated by their disgusting 2.8p in the pound, your club went and did it again. It matters not what other clubs in trouble might be doing..........this is about what is seen by most as a tawdry outfit in West Lothian has done.

You guys need to get off this kick of trying to demonstrate that you are no worse than the poorest, and try to see that you are about as bad as it gets.

Suddenly Rankine is your man, and you all trust him. Come back and tell me that in a year's time. You have gone from crook to crook to chancer to lunatic to chancer. Your man Ged Nixon is going to have his arse kicked from day one. Rankine will run rings round him.

[EdinburghLivi]

The 'trust' to Rankine is not blinded, complete trust so to speak, the fans realise the deals that he's pulled off with stadiums and the fact that he generally tries to make money off of it. However, we do realise that he's got us out of a hole and we have to be thankful for that. As I've said, if I get the chance at a meeting, I'm going to ask him what his plans for the stadium are.

I have no problem in moving if it is in our best means. Almondvale is a great stadium but it's just not sustainable at this moment.

Edited August 2, 2009 by EdinburghLivi

[Guest hockeyboy]

"Dunfermline Athletic have been scraping along for years paying people late and chancing their arm. Everyone knows that and there's businesses you won't deal with them anymore because they are bad payers."

What business won't deal with us anymore??? That's a hell of an allegation to make.

Yes we were in trouble for a number of years (and still aren't out of the woods) but instead of taking the easy way out of going into admin and cheating our creditors out of money, the board have slowly but surely been reducing our budgets and things are starting to look a bit brighter.

[Savage Henry]

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, but a few Livingston fans are completely missing the point. The current mess is not simply the doings of Massone. It is the high water mark of years of criminal misuse. Livingston's reputation may only now be irreparably damaged, but it has as much to do with previous regimes as it does the current.

[Jay Silverheels]

It seems LLD likes to make unsubstantiated allegations. Dunfermline are a bunch of chancers and Jim Ballantyne circumvented the SFL rules and conventions...

If you make these allegations, can you at least back them up?

I'll ask again for the benefit of those without your insight LLD; which rules and conventions did Jim Ballantyne circumvent, and which creditors did Dunfermline stiff?

[vikingTON]

One of the sadder parts of being Scottish is that as a nation it produces people like you and VikingTON whose only true pleasure in life is that of Schadenfreude.

You are more to be pitied than scolded

Here was me thinking Schadenfraude would be a Germanic psychological trait...

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, but a few Livingston fans are completely missing the point. The current mess is not simply the doings of Massone. It is the high water mark of years of criminal misuse. Livingston's reputation may only now be irreparably damaged, but it has as much to do with previous regimes as it does the current.

Absolutely.

[EdinburghLivi]

I think, and please correct me if I am wrong, but a few Livingston fans are completely missing the point. The current mess is not simply the doings of Massone. It is the high water mark of years of criminal misuse. Livingston's reputation may only now be irreparably damaged, but it has as much to do with previous regimes as it does the current.

The debt was wiped clean after Keane's reign and Flynn raised a manageable level of debt. 99% of the blame goes to Massone for making us spend way out of our means and not puting any money in to counter that.