EdinburghLivi Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Apparently, the Livi "Fighting Fund" is over £10,000 now. An excellent effort. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 HibeeJibee, why do you think a ten point penalty would be enough? Surely that's fine for the first occasion, but for the second, another ten should be added on? In my opinion that would be fair and I'm sure the Livi supporters would not argue too much with that either. I'm not arguing against a penalty but we didn't get -10 points the last time we went into admin so why should it be -20 this time? Apart from the fact we aren't in admin at the moment. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 No he hasn't. He has simply stated that it is not right that we do not know what league we will be in, just one week before the start of the season. He is quite right to complain about that, how the hell is he meant to build a squad in that situation ? One minute he is looking at 2nd Division players and the next minute it looks like Livi are going bust and he will need 1st Division players. He also probably feels agrieved that due to Airdrie 'living within their means' and not 'cheating', he now has 2 relegations on his CV (obviously there were other factors, such as him being a poor manager ), while one of the clubs that 'cheated' looks like getting away with it. I'm not KB's biggest fan by a long way but I do have sympathy for him, and what he said was spot on. Why complain about which league he will be in then ? He should say he's planned for division 2, he has a budget for division 2 so in order to keep to his plans for the season he will play in division 2. Easy solution 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay Silverheels Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Why complain about which league he will be in then ? He should say he's planned for division 2, he has a budget for division 2 so in order to keep to his plans for the season he will play in division 2. Easy solution Not that easy, since he is not the one that has the final say on the matter. Black's still a duffer, though, and it doesn't matter which division he's in as he can't motivate nor manage a team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Not that easy, since he is not the one that has the final say on the matter. Black's still a duffer, though, and it doesn't matter which division he's in as he can't motivate nor manage a team. I wouldn't diagree that Black is a duffer but my point remains. If he's moaning about not knowing which league he will be in, he should just tell the league that he's planned for the 2nd so leave them in there 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The debt was wiped clean after Keane's reign and Flynn raised a manageable level of debt. 99% of the blame goes to Massone for making us spend way out of our means and not puting any money in to counter that. From what I've read that's a bit unfair. Yes Massone was a loony but Flynn (allegedly) hid the true nature of Livi's debts as well as their structural debt. To be honest none of your owners come out of this smelling of roses!! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I'm not arguing against a penalty but we didn't get -10 points the last time we went into admin so why should it be -20 this time? Apart from the fact we aren't in admin at the moment. Because the rules have changed. It's like arguing that I didn't get a speeding ticket because that road used to be 40mph but is now 30mph. I could understand if rules were retrospective but thats not the case here. Where Livi do have a case is the complete lack of clarity over what penalty should be given. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCL Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Because the rules have changed.It's like arguing that I didn't get a speeding ticket because that road used to be 40mph but is now 30mph. I could understand if rules were retrospective but thats not the case here. Where Livi do have a case is the complete lack of clarity over what penalty should be given. The original quote I used argued that the punishment should increase to be more than we had the last time. We didn't get a 10 point penalty last time so why should we have more this time ? We aren't in admin yet. I know. I know, I'm starting to sound familiar 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer Thompson Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Apparently, the Livi "Fighting Fund" is over £10,000 now. An excellent effort. No, no it isnt I'm not arguing against a penalty but we didn't get -10 points the last time we went into admin so why should it be -20 this time? Apart from the fact we aren't in admin at the moment. Not technically, but you are in contravention of the SFL rules. Although I fully accept that you livi fans are used to living on technicalities The original quote I used argued that the punishment should increase to be more than we had the last time. We didn't get a 10 point penalty last time so why should we have more this time ? We aren't in admin yet. I know. I know, I'm starting to sound familiar No, youre starting to sound like a p***k. Actually, scrub "starting" from that sentence 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 It's not as simple as 'Livi are cheats'.Our current debt was run up by a madman who was engaged in illegal business practices - before that it was perfectly manageable.No one at Livingston FC has benefitted by one iota through this so-called cheating, in fact it's probably the opposite. And define cheating... is borrowing money cheating? Should overdrafts be banned for football clubs? Is borrowing money you have no realistic means of paying back cheating? If so, there are several other examples of cheats in the First Division. I am not suggesting that the way Livingston has operated is correct. In fact I am ashamed of it. But poor financial management and over ambition is rife in Scottish football. Now that you are apparently saved will you simply blame EVERYTHING on Massone? The fact is Livingston have NEVER had a "perfectly manageable" debt. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jester Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 OK I didn't appreciate that. But I'm still confused as to what's been taken away from Airdrie - as Livi haven't been liquidated, in fact have got new investors and may not be in long-term admin? Livis future is also dependant on their CVA being accepted by the creditors. Should the creditors refuse, then the only route available (assuming Messrs Rankine et al won't pay in full) is bankruptcy, is it not? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hope they only get a 10 point deduction,anything more will just make the situation even more farcical if that's possible. Massone is an easy target,anyone that believes a large portion of the financial woes present at Livi weren't inherited by Massone are IMO kidding themselves on. Surely Flynn acting like a desperado and accepting the devils pound with no regard for future consequences to Livi should be getting as much flak as Massone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 LLD, we both know that Livvy have spent their entire existance seeking to gain a competitive advantage in a league table environment by spending money to enhance their position, and then choosing non payment of the debt without footballing penalties as their way of doing business. It has bought you SPL time as well as a CIS Cup win...........neither of which would have been "achieved" but for the power of the phantom chequebook. That, in most people's eyes, is distilled down to the word "cheating". By that definition, Livingston are pathalogical cheaters. Now, ultimately it can be argued that the support are innocents in this. Fine. But the presence in the SPL and the carving on a club's name on a trophy simply has to be determined by some element of fair play. Livingston have singularly failed to hold ethics, integrity and fair play as foundation stones of how to go about business. That profound sense of injustice has brought us to where we are today. You already know that existing debts will not be honoured. I think most outside Livingston are a wee bit cynical as to exactly when it is that the new honest and morality ridden Livingston will come into force. As of today, it still doesn't exist. You are preaching to the converted to an extent. What I am saying is that the game is littered with examples of clubs spending outwith their means. Dundee spent many more millions than we did but ultimately didn't achieve the success we did. It doesn't mean they didn't cheat. Or there's Kilmarnock who are carrying more debt now than we have ever written off. Will they be able to trade out of it? Unlikely. I've already mentioned Dunfermline - how they escaped administration over the last few years is more luck than judgement. Partick Thistle are another club who repeatedly end up in large amounts of debt. Only sooner or later they will run out of land to sell. The middle rank of Scottish football is full of 'cheats'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(o)sean Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 If this happened in a murder case there would be so much outcry the judges would be banished after being hung drawn and quartered. what a stupid thing to say 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 The debt was wiped clean after Keane's reign and Flynn raised a manageable level of debt. 99% of the blame goes to Massone for making us spend way out of our means and not puting any money in to counter that. Flynn asset stripped like there was no tomorrow. Yet Massone is still seen as the real baddie here. Sure, he ran up debt and probably stole the Leigh Griffiths transfer money. Flynn stole a building FFS! Is that Liz Franchi still skulking around, or has she done a runner with her share of the swag? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LLD Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Flynn asset stripped like there was no tomorrow. Yet Massone is still seen as the real baddie here. Sure, he ran up debt and probably stole the Leigh Griffiths transfer money. Flynn stole a building FFS!Is that Liz Franchi still skulking around, or has she done a runner with her share of the swag? Franchi was made redundant the other day. Would agree that Flynn takes a share of the blame but the damage done by Massone and his mate Angelini has been quite staggering in all areas of the business. Its quite an achievement in one year. On the footballing side the bargain basement sales of our best players rankles most. The club still owns the former nightclub building by the way - it just needs to be put to an alternative use. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NorthBank Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 (edited) The original quote I used argued that the punishment should increase to be more than we had the last time. We didn't get a 10 point penalty last time so why should we have more this time ? We aren't in admin yet. I know. I know, I'm starting to sound familiar Livingston ARE in administration - thats why you have an administrator running things. Until you pay the creditors what they have asked the courts for, you will remain in administration. Liquidation is still a possibility if the administrator cannot come to agreement with the creditors. And on that note I am mystified why Livingston can talk about bringing in a new manager as I understood that Livingston could not take on staff while in administration. Edited August 2, 2009 by NorthBank 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rovers_Lad Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Or remain full time 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Psychosis Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 Partick Thistle are another club who repeatedly end up in large amounts of debt. Only sooner or later they will run out of land to sell.The middle rank of Scottish football is full of 'cheats'. The same Partick Thistle who at least paid off 100% of their footballing debts? As for "repeatedly", there's nothing repeatable about it. We'd need to have got out of debt in the first place. Some clubs are actually trying to service their debts rather than just write them off. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glensburgh Posted August 2, 2009 Share Posted August 2, 2009 I see most reports have bollan as the next manager, murphy as the present manager, and no mention of hegarty at all. does this mean he's been paid off by massone/mcgruther, or is there still a tribunal to be heard regarding his position? yet another missing piece of the jigsaw, or have I missed something? I don't recall any post about his situation being resolved. Not only, but also, what happens if when McDougall/Rankine/McGruther submit their "masterplan" it doesn't match the promises/predictions they made on Thursday. Do the SFL have the right to say sorry, not good enough, now feck off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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