Beachbum Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 I was meaning that they are in the 1st division and no longer stuck in the bottom tier. Sorry about that reply but the more ott I made it, the worse it looks for the pars and their incredibly naive supporters. Hate them for the years they cheated 'Livi style' to stay in the SPL, pretending they're a BIG club. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 If Livingston launch an appeal, and refuse to play, they are in breach of the same rules as good old Hamilton Accies were when their players went on strike. If Livi do scratch, they should have the book thrown at them. Seldom in history has a Senior club scratched from a league fixture... Here's an interesting scenario: Livingston appeal and refuse to play any Third Division games, and are deducted 15 points for each offence. Let's say they've missed 3 games at the point their appeal is heard, and it's somehow successful. What happens to the -45 points? Do they move with Livi to the First Division? Or are they wiped out because, in the end, it turned out that they weren't supposed to play those games anyway? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doink Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 The points deduction would not count. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Here's an interesting scenario:Livingston appeal and refuse to play any Third Division games, and are deducted 15 points for each offence. Let's say they've missed 3 games at the point their appeal is heard, and it's somehow successful. What happens to the -45 points? Do they move with Livi to the First Division? Or are they wiped out because, in the end, it turned out that they weren't supposed to play those games anyway? There were supposed to play the games. However they would no longer be in the Third Division - it would be at the Management Committee's discretion (or a SGM). So I'd suggest it'd be -45. Livingston FC are in the Third Division, until such time as a move is made to move them out of it. I am baffled as to why Doink thinks that a member of the Scottish Football League can elect to refute and confound a decision of the SFL Management Committee - when that Committee has full powers to take the decision. If Livi appeal it is due to severity - not due to a claim that Livi have not broken the rule. If Livi refuse to play tomorrow they are in breach of rules - there are no provisional fixtures, and Livi are in the Third Division, until the SFL MC decision is overturned by a SGM of clubs. Livi will either play tomorrow, or simply fold - because to scratch is football suicide. Edited August 7, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Livi Lions rumour that "Livi" squad has been instructed not to turn up at Shire tomorrow. Either the club has folded or it's going to appeal, suspect the latter 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 The points deduction would not count. It could count - probably would. Scratching / bringing game into disrepute isn't division-specific. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Livi Lions rumour that "Livi" squad has been instructed not to turn up at Shire tomorrow.Either the club has folded or it's going to appeal, suspect the latter Unless it's appealling to the Court of Session how does scratching the game help their situation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 This has just been posted on LiviLions: Jumping back through the thread... I think Livi have acknowledged they broke the rules and so deserve some form of punishment. With that in mind, the status quo is not maintained whilst an appeal against the sentence is forthcoming. Or do those people on LiviLions think that criminals who appeal against their sentence are released in order to do so (since being free is the status quo, after all). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qpsnapper Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Yet the SFL do their level best to extinguish one of their member clubs. Hardly helps the cause. Yes, it's all the SFL's fault. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Unless it's appealling to the Court of Session how does scratching the game help their situation? God knows. A statement from the club really would be helpful. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Livi Lions rumour that "Livi" squad has been instructed not to turn up at Shire tomorrow.Either the club has folded or it's going to appeal, suspect the latter If this happens, then the slow-motion car crash will have sped up somewhat. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjo player Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 See if Livi do appeal and if the appeal is successful, will all posts in this thread after the League Management Committee meeting be considered as provisional and be wiped off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) God knows. A statement from the club really would be helpful. Not to turn up tomorrow is like playing Russian Roulette. The SFL rules are crystal clear on this. The game has been officially fixtured, and Livingston are officially in the Third Division, and have not yet (to anyone's knowledge) launched an appeal. Even if they do appeal, the rules make no provision for affected games to stop, or for Livi to play in Div 1. To scratch would be madness... Should also be observed that scratching fixtures is in breach of SFA Articles of Association, IIRC. Edited August 7, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Not to turn up tomorrow is like playing Russian Roulette. The SFL rules are crystal clear on this. The game has been officially fixtured, and Livingston are officially in the Third Division, and have not yet (to anyone's knowledge) launched an appeal. Even if they do appeal, the rules make no provision for affected games to stop, or for Livi to play in Div 1. To scratch would be madness...Should also be observed that scratching fixtures is in breach of SFA Articles of Association, IIRC. Presumably, then, this seeming fixation with appeal and not playing Div 3 fixtures is because the "consortium" have no intention of funding Div 3 football- and appeal really is last roll of the dice to try and get Div 1 business plan to work. Edit- also expect a final salvo of blackmail and media manipulation from McGruther & the consortium "if this appeal fails, then Livingston die" etc etc Edited August 7, 2009 by Ivo den Bieman 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Presumably, then, this seeming fixation with appeal and not playing Div 3 fixtures is because the "consortium" have no intention of funding Div 3 football- and appeal really is last roll of the dice to try and get Div 1 business plan to work. It's craziness. Scratching a Senior league fixture to boost their appeal's merits? Sheer lunancy... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) Should also be observed that scratching fixtures is in breach of SFA Articles of Association, IIRC. A quick skim through reveals nothing specific, although it could be caught by something else. EDIT: as far as I can see, it's only scratching a game in the Scottish Cup (or the "Challenge Cup" as they like to call it) that is a breach of the Articles of Association. Edited August 7, 2009 by Sir Calum Melville 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larsson. Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 See if Livi do appeal and if the appeal is successful, will all posts in this thread after the League Management Committee meeting be considered as provisional and be wiped off? Prob have to go through an appeal process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DigitalJedi Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) When this whole sordid affair is over, this thread should be published as a book. It tells the whole story, from denial to subterfuge to farce. It has some blinding posts too (Ivo with his post of the season). I'd buy it! Edited August 7, 2009 by DigitalJedi 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Master Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 Guffaw Thought I'd raise this gem from the very first page welcome to the site angelo don't let a few people bring you down, we appreciate what you and the others are doing for our club! FORZA LIVI!!! Could not agree more - mind you there will always be people out there that try to bring you down - just don't let them! Thank you. Welcome to the site Mr Massone. Please note we have been burned in the past with Chairmen who are good at talking the talk. In my opinion, you and your colleagues HAVE walked the walk so far, so that does for me. Keep up the good work. I am happy with the team's progress so far. I hope it continues. Thank you for your input. Welcome Angelo. There's a good positive feeling around the club this season, something we've missed a lot over the last 4 years, so thanks for bringing that back. You've made some welcome changes so far, and it's good to see you posting in such an open way. Most Livi fans know that things are not going to turn around overnight from where we were, so good luck to you over the coming months with what you are trying to achieve. It's a pleasure to finally speak with you Mr Massone and I hope that the positive atmosphere that has recently surrounded the club, since the new board's arrival, can stay here for a very long time. Originally Posted by LLD What a pack of lies. BORED.COM Welcome angelo I am happy with what u have done so far Forza Livi Welcome Angelo. Lets hope its a good year that we can build on in seasons to come. And that's only on the first page 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 (edited) A quick skim through reveals nothing specific, although it could be caught by something else.EDIT: as far as I can see, it's only scratching a game in the Scottish Cup (or the "Challenge Cup" as they like to call it) that is a breach of the Articles of Association. It's a question of interpretation, but in my opinion Livingston would clearly be in breah of 123... Penalties123. The Board shall have the power to fine, suspend or expel any recognised football body, club, official, player, referee or other person under the jurisdiction of the Association who in its opinion, in any way brings the game into disrepute, or is likely to bring the game into disrepute or on any other grounds it considers sufficient and of which, subject to any right of appeal, it shall be the sole judge. and there might also be a section of Club Licensing... Remember that East Stirlingshire and SFL are also SFA members, and as such Livingston scratching may be an infringement against them. Let's be quite clear what Livingston scratching from tomorrow's game means, put in context, if they decide to go down that past. I'm only away of such a thing having happend 5 times ever: in 1894-95 Renton refused to turn up for a game versus Dundee Wanderers in 1932-33 Bo'ness and Armadale failed to turn up for games and/or pay gate guarentees in 1999-00 Hamilton failed to turn up for a game v Stenhousemuir due to a players strike On the first 2 occasions, the clubs were simply expelled. On the latter occasion, fined 15 points. in 1915-16 a game between Morton and Hearts was unplayed (due to transport difficulties resulting from World War I, it was impossible to play the tie before the 30th April cut-off) in 1924-25, Brechin and Dykeshead failed to fulfil a game due to the season running out If Livingston fail to turn up tomorrow, it can surely only be construed as with the earlier batch of cases. They know about the game, it has been officially fixtured. It isn't the season's end, there is no World War in progress. They are in the Third Division until such time as the SFL MC decision is appealled and over-turned. If they scratch tomorrow's game, then throw the book at them IMO... Edited August 7, 2009 by HibeeJibee 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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