May 2011 Election

[10 CC ICT]

With this thread being overwhelmingly pro-SNP anyone care to persuade me I should tick thier box despite the above?

A vote for SNP is not a vote for independance, that may happen but only if us Scots decide in a referendum.

I'll try:

Stop crying and vote for them, you big Mary. Also explain the bit in bold.

84/94 = 10 unfulfilled pledges (several blocked by CDUist parties) hth

[Lambie's Pigeon Feed]

I'll try:

Stop crying and vote for them, you big Mary. Also explain the bit in bold.

They implemented their entire manifesto did they? Strange I'm still paying back my student loan then, should I contact human resources?

I ddin't come on here to diss the SNP, I was merely dipping my toe in the water to see if I should vote for them despite being anti-independence.

[10 CC ICT]

They implemented their entire manifesto did they? Strange I'm still paying back my student loan then, should I contact human resources?

I ddin't come on here to diss the SNP, I was merely dipping my toe in the water to see if I should vote for them despite being anti-independence.

This election is not a referendum on independance, your vote for SNP will not split the union.

[Swampy]

They implemented their entire manifesto did they? Strange I'm still paying back my student loan then, should I contact human resources?

I ddin't come on here to diss the SNP, I was merely dipping my toe in the water to see if I should vote for them despite being anti-independence.

I don't regard failing to implement an entire manifesto as a broken promise. Actively doing something completely contrary to your manifesto (e.g. as the Lib Dems did), that to me is a broken promise. A minority administration being unable to pass literally every manifesto commitment? That's not a failing in and of itself. In my view. Your mileage may vary, in which case representative democracy is going to be a source of ceaseless disappointment, and you should go and live in a hermitage somewhere and stop bothering people.

Suffice it to say I couldn't give a f**k who you vote for.

[xbl]

With this thread being overwhelmingly pro-SNP anyone care to persuade me I should tick thier box despite the above?

We've had variations of this throughout the thread, but with it being close to the election, I'll give you my thoughts (others may agree or disagree with me). Firstly, to deal with the independence question, you're not actually voting for independence. A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, no matter what you think. A vote for the SNP is a vote for choice. The SNP are proposing a referendum, and the referendum will then be a vote for independence, for the status quo, or for more powers. They are willing to put that before the people. On the other hand, voting for the Unionist parties means that yes, you might get more powers, but you don't have a say in it. You'll get what you're given. So even if you're passionately against independence, there is a chance that there will be a no vote, meaning that (as the SNP have said), then the issue will pretty much be put to bed for a generation. So a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, its a vote for letting the people choose. I mean apparently we're capable of deciding between FPTP and AV, why not our constitutional future?

Now, secondly, you talk about the front bench. They ran a minority government, at the whim of the minority parties and with limited powers. Indeed, one of the first things the Unionists did was force through the tram legislation. But despite this, I (and others) seem to be of the opinion that they've done pretty well. Sure, some things haven't been great, and some things they could have done better, but they tried to compromise, they tried to be constructive, and so the Greens, Tories, and Lib Dems all supported SNP legislation at some point. That is partly down to the solid front bench who have worked well. And look at the reshuffling (or lack of). Under Labour in Scotland and Westminster, we had regular reshuffles, with frequent job hopping. Here we've had the same key guys in position with only very minimal changes for four years. No sleaze, no scandal (well, nothing that is actually, you know, real), I think 1 resignation (for weather) and one person moved. Thats it, and its pretty good going. The likes of Sturgeon, Swinny, McAskill etc. have been pretty capable operators.

Thirdly, they offer hope. Look at the campaigning. The SNP have offered visions and hope, they offer the people a choice, they want to boost energy production, they want to see us leading the world, really being involved, they look forwards. The other parties on the other hand offer fear and negativity. You might not agree that 100+% energy production from renewable sources is practical, but at least its an aspiration. Under the SNP, they've argued against Scotland's crippling transmission charges, they've struck deals with Norwegian and Catalonian companies, they've encouraged investment, and they just try and offer more. Surely thats laudable?

Then you have the matter of standing up to Westminster. Surely there can be no doubt that the SNP do this better? Indeed, in 2007 the Unionists ran a whole campaign on this (SNP picking fights...), they don't have another party in Westminster to go to, they don't have a higher authority. This is it for them, their focus is totally on Scotland. Surely, even if you don't believe in independence, this is a good thing?

I believe these are positive reasons to vote SNP, and I'm trying not to go negative. Any thoughts in return?

Edited to add, and I do care who you vote for! Every vote for the SNP is a good vote. I never voted SNP in my life before 2007. Give it a whirl, you might like it!

[Swampy]

We've had variations of this throughout the thread, but with it being close to the election, I'll give you my thoughts (others may agree or disagree with me). Firstly, to deal with the independence question, you're not actually voting for independence. A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, no matter what you think. A vote for the SNP is a vote for choice. The SNP are proposing a referendum, and the referendum will then be a vote for independence, for the status quo, or for more powers. They are willing to put that before the people. On the other hand, voting for the Unionist parties means that yes, you might get more powers, but you don't have a say in it. You'll get what you're given. So even if you're passionately against independence, there is a chance that there will be a no vote, meaning that (as the SNP have said), then the issue will pretty much be put to bed for a generation. So a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, its a vote for letting the people choose. I mean apparently we're capable of deciding between FPTP and AV, why not our constitutional future?

Now, secondly, you talk about the front bench. They ran a minority government, at the whim of the minority parties and with limited powers. Indeed, one of the first things the Unionists did was force through the tram legislation. But despite this, I (and others) seem to be of the opinion that they've done pretty well. Sure, some things haven't been great, and some things they could have done better, but they tried to compromise, they tried to be constructive, and so the Greens, Tories, and Lib Dems all supported SNP legislation at some point. That is partly down to the solid front bench who have worked well. And look at the reshuffling (or lack of). Under Labour in Scotland and Westminster, we had regular reshuffles, with frequent job hopping. Here we've had the same key guys in position with only very minimal changes for four years. No sleaze, no scandal (well, nothing that is actually, you know, real), I think 1 resignation (for weather) and one person moved. Thats it, and its pretty good going. The likes of Sturgeon, Swinny, McAskill etc. have been pretty capable operators.

Thirdly, they offer hope. Look at the campaigning. The SNP have offered visions and hope, they offer the people a choice, they want to boost energy production, they want to see us leading the world, really being involved, they look forwards. The other parties on the other hand offer fear and negativity. You might not agree that 100+% energy production from renewable sources is practical, but at least its an aspiration. Under the SNP, they've argued against Scotland's crippling transmission charges, they've struck deals with Norwegian and Catalonian companies, they've encouraged investment, and they just try and offer more. Surely thats laudable?

Then you have the matter of standing up to Westminster. Surely there can be no doubt that the SNP do this better? Indeed, in 2007 the Unionists ran a whole campaign on this (SNP picking fights...), they don't have another party in Westminster to go to, they don't have a higher authority. This is it for them, their focus is totally on Scotland. Surely, even if you don't believe in independence, this is a good thing?

I believe these are positive reasons to vote SNP, and I'm trying not to go negative. Any thoughts in return?

Edited to add, and I do care who you vote for! Every vote for the SNP is a good vote. I never voted SNP in my life before 2007. Give it a whirl, you might like it!

Shit, saved one of the paid staff doing it.

[Spain]

Is it just me, or has Kenny MacAskill been locked in a cupboard during this election campaign? I wonder why that would be...

[Ad Lib]

A referendum being 'multi-option' is usually taken for granted.

And I realise you're being facetious but why is three options worse than two when polls regularly indicate 'more powers' to be more popular than both full independence and the status quo?

I wasn't suggesting it was worse! I think a 3 or 4 option referendum would be great! I was just trying to be facetious by suggesting a never ending cycle of referenda on choosing the voting system for the referendum that chooses the voting system that chooses the referendum that chooses the voting system that ... chooses the voting system for the 'Scotland's future' referendum/referenda.

Honestly, can nobody accept that from time to time I might be insincere for the sake of it!?

[Lambie's Pigeon Feed]

We've had variations of this throughout the thread, but with it being close to the election, I'll give you my thoughts (others may agree or disagree with me). Firstly, to deal with the independence question, you're not actually voting for independence. A vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, no matter what you think. A vote for the SNP is a vote for choice. The SNP are proposing a referendum, and the referendum will then be a vote for independence, for the status quo, or for more powers. They are willing to put that before the people. On the other hand, voting for the Unionist parties means that yes, you might get more powers, but you don't have a say in it. You'll get what you're given. So even if you're passionately against independence, there is a chance that there will be a no vote, meaning that (as the SNP have said), then the issue will pretty much be put to bed for a generation. So a vote for the SNP is not a vote for independence, its a vote for letting the people choose. I mean apparently we're capable of deciding between FPTP and AV, why not our constitutional future?

Now, secondly, you talk about the front bench. They ran a minority government, at the whim of the minority parties and with limited powers. Indeed, one of the first things the Unionists did was force through the tram legislation. But despite this, I (and others) seem to be of the opinion that they've done pretty well. Sure, some things haven't been great, and some things they could have done better, but they tried to compromise, they tried to be constructive, and so the Greens, Tories, and Lib Dems all supported SNP legislation at some point. That is partly down to the solid front bench who have worked well. And look at the reshuffling (or lack of). Under Labour in Scotland and Westminster, we had regular reshuffles, with frequent job hopping. Here we've had the same key guys in position with only very minimal changes for four years. No sleaze, no scandal (well, nothing that is actually, you know, real), I think 1 resignation (for weather) and one person moved. Thats it, and its pretty good going. The likes of Sturgeon, Swinny, McAskill etc. have been pretty capable operators.

Thirdly, they offer hope. Look at the campaigning. The SNP have offered visions and hope, they offer the people a choice, they want to boost energy production, they want to see us leading the world, really being involved, they look forwards. The other parties on the other hand offer fear and negativity. You might not agree that 100+% energy production from renewable sources is practical, but at least its an aspiration. Under the SNP, they've argued against Scotland's crippling transmission charges, they've struck deals with Norwegian and Catalonian companies, they've encouraged investment, and they just try and offer more. Surely thats laudable?

Then you have the matter of standing up to Westminster. Surely there can be no doubt that the SNP do this better? Indeed, in 2007 the Unionists ran a whole campaign on this (SNP picking fights...), they don't have another party in Westminster to go to, they don't have a higher authority. This is it for them, their focus is totally on Scotland. Surely, even if you don't believe in independence, this is a good thing?

I believe these are positive reasons to vote SNP, and I'm trying not to go negative. Any thoughts in return?

Edited to add, and I do care who you vote for! Every vote for the SNP is a good vote. I never voted SNP in my life before 2007. Give it a whirl, you might like it!

1. I know it's not a vote for independence and I know there is not a majority in favour of independence if a referendum did come along and I wouldn't mind seeing a few more economic powers coming north of the border but symbollically voting SNP is a vote for independence hence my aprehension.

2. Don't agree with you on this, the only one I rate is Salmond but I rate him very very highly, there are not many politicians I have respected throughout my entire life, you could count them on your fingers but he is definitely one of them. But importantly this is the party who gave Anne McGlaughlin a job for 4 years, in my opinion the most undeserving and incompetent UK politician in my lifetime. I have also met with another prominent SNP MSP for drinks a few times through a friend and although he is a nice enough guy I don't rate him much as a politician. Most MSP's are anonymous and shite but the SNP seem particularly bad in this regard. I have met with 3 Lib Dem MSP's in social/political circles a number of times and they always struck me as being far more competant overall but I won't be voting for them now.

3. The SNP do present optimism but sometimes they step over into pie in the sky territory.

4. I have total respect for Salmond's dealings with Westminster and you are right, not being accountable to a higher party is a good thing.

[vikingTON]

Is it just me, or has Kenny MacAskill been locked in a cupboard during this election campaign? I wonder why that would be...

It's probably to give the permanently offended brigade time to stop crying about the horrid injustice of it all, dry their eyes and re-engage with adult discussion. Seeing as it really is an irrelevancy to the election and all.

[Swampy]

It's probably to give the permanently offended brigade time to stop crying about the horrid injustice of it all, dry their eyes and re-engage with adult discussion. Seeing as it really is an irrelevancy to the election and all.

It is an irrelevance to the election but MacAskill is a disgrace. He's complicit in the fact that there is still no justice over Lockerbie. If he was in my constituency I'd abstain.

[Reynard]

Is it just me, or has Kenny MacAskill been locked in a cupboard during this election campaign? I wonder why that would be...

He should pretend he's sick then he would get out early.

[Swampy]

He should pretend he's sick then he would get out early.

Not bad, not bad...

[xbl]

Honestly, can nobody accept that from time to time I might be insincere for the sake of it!?

You're just rubbish at it!

1. I know it's not a vote for independence and I know there is not a majority in favour of independence if a referendum did come along and I wouldn't mind seeing a few more economic powers coming north of the border but symbollically voting SNP is a vote for independence hence my aprehension.

2. Don't agree with you on this, the only one I rate is Salmond but I rate him very very highly, there are not many politicians I have respected throughout my entire life, you could count them on your fingers but he is definitely one of them. But importantly this is the party who gave Anne McGlaughlin a job for 4 years, in my opinion the most undeserving and incompetent UK politician in my lifetime. I have also met with another prominent SNP MSP for drinks a few times through a friend and although he is a nice enough guy I don't rate him much as a politician. Most MSP's are anonymous and shite but the SNP seem particularly bad in this regard. I have met with 3 Lib Dem MSP's in social/political circles a number of times and they always struck me as being far more competant overall but I won't be voting for them now.

3. The SNP do present optimism but sometimes they step over into pie in the sky territory.

4. I have total respect for Salmond's dealings with Westminster and you are right, not being accountable to a higher party is a good thing.

1. To be honest, you're just buying into the whole "Break Up Britain" nonsense. We've had four years of government now, the Union still appears to be here. As I said, its a vote for choice. You're getting further devolution anyway, whether you like it or not. Its now just a choice between a toothless fudge to undercut the SNP, carried out without involving the people, or being offered a say in our future. It really doesn't have to be a symbolic vote for independence. Take this as an example, Corporation tax. It is being offered to NI as a devolved power. Its not in the Scotland Act though. The SNP have asked why, and the answer has basically just been "err, naw". Really, if Labour had won in 2007, the status quo would still be the only alternative today. Furthermore, the SNP have pledged to fight for more powers (like Corporation tax) in the Scotland act before putting any potential referendum forward. They are willing to do the best for Scotland, even if it isn't independence.

2. I don't want to be negative, but seriously, look at the alternatives! You're entitled to your opinion, so I don't see any point in arguing heavily if you've made your mind up.

3. I'm not sure what you mean by that, can you think of any examples? I mean for example, regarding renewables, the science is there to show that Scotland can generate electricity, regarding the powere of an independent country, there are numerous small countries out there that can serve as examples. If the worst thing the SNP are guilty of is being over optimistic, then thats hardly a crime.

4. I'm glad we agree.

Also, you're a Lib Dem supporter, well things like being anti nuclear and anti fees (Scotland only) are the sort of things which the Scottish Lib Dems agree with. They did business with the SNP throughout the last Parliament, and the only reason they didn't go into coalition with the SNP was because they refused to give the people a say in the future. The transition between the two parties isn't all that great, the crucial thing is that the Lib Dems in Scotland think small and are influenced by London. They think of Scotland as a region, whereas the SNP think bigger, they see SCotland as a nation.

As I said, I'm trying to present positive reasons, but if I want to go negative, I'd just repeat, look at the alternative!

Now, I'm watching football.

[ForzaDundee]

In Dundee the only placards I've seen have been for Labour and SNP. Labour's Dundee East candidate is called Mohammad Asif which explains why (without sounding racist) most cornershop owners seem to support him. SNP should hold very comfortably but I have recently shown this to some friends who were thinking about voting Labour and they've totally gone off the idea.

[Ivo den Bieman]

Apologies if you've already addressed this previously but isn't Margaret Smith a shoe in to win in Edinburgh West?

I can't remember the last time this area was lib-dem free.

In fact, a quick bit of investigatory work tells me that 1992 was the last time we had someone from another party representing us.

It's a four-way marginal.

If the Lib Dem vote really is collapsing as all the polls predict, I'd be very surprised if a Lib Dem was a "shoe-in" there.

You're right that it's their best chance of avoiding a wipe out.

[Reynard]

That's how I see Labour in Scotland these days. Having a charisma-free nonentity as Scottish leader taking the pathetic election policy position of compulsory jail time for knife carriers is just a token political afterthought from Labour in Westminster.

They continue to gamble on idiots voting Labour because 'ma da wiz a Labour man and am a Labour man!'. How long this gamble will pay off remains to be seen. It was a sure bet when Scotland had the 'state from cradle to grave' culture, but it's been a while since we had any national unionised industries to employ the working classes (okay, maybe civil servants ). Are Labour now reduced to counting on mass votes from second generation benefit dependants?

Yep. And the near 50% of people up here that rely on the state for their wages, you can see how they voted at the general election where they were protecting their incomes. That's a big load of state reliant mouths to feed. And it's no way to run an economy either.

If Scotland is to be able to stand on its own two feet then it is going to have to reduce the size of the state as it is too big, too costly and there are too many mouths to feed. And that's how Labour want it to be.

[Fudge]

Does Goldie only have one cardigan?

[McRuffian]

Who's this woofter?

Only thing he's been stabbed with is his bf's porker.

[theentomologist]

Who's this woofter?

Only thing he's been stabbed with is his bf's porker.

tbf he did trap Iain Gray quite well. 'I wrote to you....and then I was stabbed'

edit: someone trap him in the mandatory/leeway question thing now please....this is the question. come on audience go for the jugular!

edit edit: nice wee dodge and weave by Salmond there.

edit edit edit: what a fecklessly useless audience this is.

edit edit edit edit: finally someone asked Iain Gray how he will create 0% youth unemployment! I await his answer!

ha! the end. he might as well run naked through glasgow tomorrow. for all the good it will do him!