Hillsborough debate

[Savage Henry]

The thing is you can blame the fans until you are blue in the face but it doesn't detract from the failures of the police, the FA and the football club - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I do wonder if there will be criminal cases now, I suspect this is not the end of it yet.

 

eta:

 

Following today's verdicts, the CPS confirms it will now begin considering criminal charges over Hillsborough  

 

Indeed.  And there's nobody trying to do that.  It's not a case of either/or.  

[7-2]

The thing is you can blame the fans until you are blue in the face but it doesn't detract from the failures of the police, the FA and the football club - it was a disaster waiting to happen.

 

I think you could have phrased that better.

[7-2]

Nah, look at the jury's conclusion to question 3.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-merseyside-36102998

 

Full conclusions to all questions on here

 

'The sweep of the crowd'.  If you're going towards a crowd do you slow down as you approach the back of it and wait to move forward or just fire ahead into it?

[davidy233]

I was at Hillsborough (in the Forest end) - it was the second year in a row the teams had met at the semi final stage and the previous year we got caught in a crush in the tunnel leading onto the terrace at the Kop end - it was scary as feck and luckily at the Kop there was plenty of space once we got forced out of that tunnel and onto the terrace - that obviously wasn't the case at the Leppings Lane end.

 

Worst day of my life - standing watching people die isn't what you go to the football for.

 

JFT96

[NewBlue]

I think you could have phrased that better.

 

[Theo Snelders]

'The sweep of the crowd'.  If you're going towards a crowd do you slow down as you approach the back of it and wait to move forward or just fire ahead into it?

 

If you watch footage of the events, and read witness accounts, you'll find that folk were trapped by others arriving swiftly behind them and could not control where they went. Indeed there are accounts of folk being lifted off their feet and being carried by the crowd.

[The Equalizer]

Some cringe worthy coverage on talksport at the moment. Reading out the names in somber voices with YNWA playing in the background.

[williemillersmoustache]

Plenty of room to criticise fans for pushing, but how on earth were they supposed to know what was going on? The blame, the anger, the disgrace and hopefully the retribution should be aimed not at those who made mistakes but at those who lied, to cover those mistakes. 

Kelvin MacKenzie is a good place to start.

[WullieBroonIsGod]

It's come full circle since THAT Sun article really.  Now anyone apportioning any blame to the fans would be run out of town and no campaign would stop until they were effectively cleared of any blame.

 

The majority of the blame no doubt lies with the police, but ticketless fans trying to get into the ground had to be a factor. 

 

At the end of the day though, 96 fans didn't come home from a football match, and it's heartbreaking

[The Equalizer]

Plenty of room to criticise fans for pushing, but how on earth were they supposed to know what was going on? The blame, the anger, the disgrace and hopefully the retribution should be aimed not at those who made mistakes but at those who lied, to cover those mistakes. 

Kelvin MacKenzie is a good place to start.

 

It's important not to lose sight of this, the biggest crime is not the negligence on the day, it's the subsequent cover up. Those who altered statements and evidence after the incident should face criminal proceedings.

[sparky88]

Is there not investigations into Hillsborough all the time? Just seems like it is used as a political football.

[Falcor Roar]

So if we are to conclude that the crowd were to blame then how do we quantify that exactly? Under the exact same circumstances would fans of other clubs done something differently? Do we blame some fans involved? Most fans involved? 

 

Large crowds of people need to be managed. If they are not managed then there is the potential for tragedy. The notion that there is an ideal collective decorum of queuing in an orderly fashion is fine and dandy but thats not how things work in real life when the events are not managed safely. 

[54_and_counting]

Plenty of room to criticise fans for pushing, but how on earth were they supposed to know what was going on? The blame, the anger, the disgrace and hopefully the retribution should be aimed not at those who made mistakes but at those who lied, to cover those mistakes.

Kelvin MacKenzie is a good place to start.

If its the cover up thats questioned then fair enough, but the jury in the inquest was asked if the liverpool fans behaviour contributed and they said no

An absolutely shocking decision given the crush started outside the ground by the liverpool fans

[7-2]

If you watch footage of the events, and read witness accounts, you'll find that folk were trapped by others arriving swiftly behind them and could not control where they went. Indeed there are accounts of folk being lifted off their feet and being carried by the crowd.

 

People in a rush to get to the game as they were late and desperate to get in. It's understandable but doesn't mean you can just act irresponsibly and use a 'nobody stopped me' excuse. 

[54_and_counting]

So if we are to conclude that the crowd were to blame then how do we quantify that exactly? Under the exact same circumstances would fans of other clubs done something differently? Do we blame some fans involved? Most fans involved?

Large crowds of people need to be managed. If they are not managed then there is the potential for tragedy. The notion that there is an ideal collective decorum of queuing in an orderly fashion is fine and dandy but thats not how things work in real life when the events are not managed safely.

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

[7-2]

So if we are to conclude that the crowd were to blame 

 

We are saying some of the Liverpool fans were a contributing factor, not that they were to blame. There were obviously a number of factors to blame, the fans behavior being one of them. To totally absolve them of all blame is wrong and stinks of a political sop for the cover ups that have gone on over the years.

[Tom Rogic]

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

A combination of inadequate number of turnstiles and motorway roadworks causing late arrivals of some.

Several coaches were delayed that day due to roadwarks on what was referred to as 'Snake Pass' the main stretch of road between merseyside and south yorkshire and the archaic turnstiles, examined by experts were too old and not enough in number to efficiently stream the vast amounts of people going into that end of the stadium.

The number of people in the Leppings Lane end of the stadium tallied correctly with its capacity, problem was far too many were crammed in to pens 3 & 4, due to Police and SWFC NOT closing the gate at the tunnel leading to those pens. The people heading down said tunnel which caused the subsequent crush didnt know till they were in the, by now dangerously overcrowded section of terrace that this section was absolutely rammed.

These were all facts stated and investigated by experts but clearly you know better

[Theo Snelders]

People in a rush to get to the game as they were late and desperate to get in. It's understandable but doesn't mean you can just act irresponsibly and use a 'nobody stopped me' excuse. 

 

Crush at the turnstiles started well before kick off- failure of crowd control. One of the other conclusions the jury reached was the failure of the authorities to delay kick off and allow everyone in safely,  a major contribution to the disaster. As pointed out above-large crowds need to be managed. That was a failure of the authorities' 'duty of care', not a failure on the part of the fans.

[Theo Snelders]

A combination of inadequate number of turnstiles and motorway roadworks causing late arrivals of some.

Several coaches were delayed that day due to roadwarks on what was referred to as 'Snake Pass' the main stretch of road between merseyside and south yorkshire and the archaic turnstiles, examined by experts were too old and not enough in number to efficiently stream the vast amounts of people going into that end of the stadium.

The number of people in the Leppings Lane end of the stadium tallied correctly with its capacity, problem was far too many were crammed in to pens 3 & 4, due to Police and SWFC NOT closing the gate at the tunnel leading to those pens. The people heading down said tunnel which caused the subsequent crush didnt know till they were in the, by now dangerously overcrowded section of terrace that this section was absolutely rammed.

These were all facts stated and investigated by experts but clearly you know better

 

This is spot on- and there was absolutely no evidence of ticketless fans.

[NewBlue]

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

 

The police. There had been measures in place at previous games to avoid crushes outside the ground and they had worked. At this game they didn't bother. Whichever way you paint there was no crowd control from the police whatsoever. Opening the gates had also been done previously at Hillsborough, I think that is the key issue. There were known problems with the stadium and nothing was ever done to resolve them or reduce the risk.