Hillsborough debate

[54_and_counting]

Plenty of room to criticise fans for pushing, but how on earth were they supposed to know what was going on? The blame, the anger, the disgrace and hopefully the retribution should be aimed not at those who made mistakes but at those who lied, to cover those mistakes.

Kelvin MacKenzie is a good place to start.

If its the cover up thats questioned then fair enough, but the jury in the inquest was asked if the liverpool fans behaviour contributed and they said no

An absolutely shocking decision given the crush started outside the ground by the liverpool fans

[7-2]

If you watch footage of the events, and read witness accounts, you'll find that folk were trapped by others arriving swiftly behind them and could not control where they went. Indeed there are accounts of folk being lifted off their feet and being carried by the crowd.

 

People in a rush to get to the game as they were late and desperate to get in. It's understandable but doesn't mean you can just act irresponsibly and use a 'nobody stopped me' excuse. 

[54_and_counting]

So if we are to conclude that the crowd were to blame then how do we quantify that exactly? Under the exact same circumstances would fans of other clubs done something differently? Do we blame some fans involved? Most fans involved?

Large crowds of people need to be managed. If they are not managed then there is the potential for tragedy. The notion that there is an ideal collective decorum of queuing in an orderly fashion is fine and dandy but thats not how things work in real life when the events are not managed safely.

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

[7-2]

So if we are to conclude that the crowd were to blame 

 

We are saying some of the Liverpool fans were a contributing factor, not that they were to blame. There were obviously a number of factors to blame, the fans behavior being one of them. To totally absolve them of all blame is wrong and stinks of a political sop for the cover ups that have gone on over the years.

[Tom Rogic]

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

A combination of inadequate number of turnstiles and motorway roadworks causing late arrivals of some.

Several coaches were delayed that day due to roadwarks on what was referred to as 'Snake Pass' the main stretch of road between merseyside and south yorkshire and the archaic turnstiles, examined by experts were too old and not enough in number to efficiently stream the vast amounts of people going into that end of the stadium.

The number of people in the Leppings Lane end of the stadium tallied correctly with its capacity, problem was far too many were crammed in to pens 3 & 4, due to Police and SWFC NOT closing the gate at the tunnel leading to those pens. The people heading down said tunnel which caused the subsequent crush didnt know till they were in the, by now dangerously overcrowded section of terrace that this section was absolutely rammed.

These were all facts stated and investigated by experts but clearly you know better

[Theo Snelders]

People in a rush to get to the game as they were late and desperate to get in. It's understandable but doesn't mean you can just act irresponsibly and use a 'nobody stopped me' excuse. 

 

Crush at the turnstiles started well before kick off- failure of crowd control. One of the other conclusions the jury reached was the failure of the authorities to delay kick off and allow everyone in safely,  a major contribution to the disaster. As pointed out above-large crowds need to be managed. That was a failure of the authorities' 'duty of care', not a failure on the part of the fans.

[Theo Snelders]

A combination of inadequate number of turnstiles and motorway roadworks causing late arrivals of some.

Several coaches were delayed that day due to roadwarks on what was referred to as 'Snake Pass' the main stretch of road between merseyside and south yorkshire and the archaic turnstiles, examined by experts were too old and not enough in number to efficiently stream the vast amounts of people going into that end of the stadium.

The number of people in the Leppings Lane end of the stadium tallied correctly with its capacity, problem was far too many were crammed in to pens 3 & 4, due to Police and SWFC NOT closing the gate at the tunnel leading to those pens. The people heading down said tunnel which caused the subsequent crush didnt know till they were in the, by now dangerously overcrowded section of terrace that this section was absolutely rammed.

These were all facts stated and investigated by experts but clearly you know better

 

This is spot on- and there was absolutely no evidence of ticketless fans.

[NewBlue]

So whos fault was it that the crowds started crushing outside the ground? All the games in the 80's around the country at all the shitey stadiums and i certainly don't remember the police having to open emergency gates to try clear a crush outside the turnstiles

 

The police. There had been measures in place at previous games to avoid crushes outside the ground and they had worked. At this game they didn't bother. Whichever way you paint there was no crowd control from the police whatsoever. Opening the gates had also been done previously at Hillsborough, I think that is the key issue. There were known problems with the stadium and nothing was ever done to resolve them or reduce the risk.

[54_and_counting]

A combination of inadequate number of turnstiles and motorway roadworks causing late arrivals of some.

Several coaches were delayed that day due to roadwarks on what was referred to as 'Snake Pass' the main stretch of road between merseyside and south yorkshire and the archaic turnstiles, examined by experts were too old and not enough in number to efficiently stream the vast amounts of people going into that end of the stadium.

The number of people in the Leppings Lane end of the stadium tallied correctly with its capacity, problem was far too many were crammed in to pens 3 & 4, due to Police and SWFC NOT closing the gate at the tunnel leading to those pens. The people heading down said tunnel which caused the subsequent crush didnt know till they were in the, by now dangerously overcrowded section of terrace that this section was absolutely rammed.

These were all facts stated and investigated by experts but clearly you know better

Who said i know better, my opinion is that the Liverpool fans were partly at fault, hence my surprise at them being cleared of any blame

Wether there is traffic issues, turnstile issues, doesn't cover up the fact that liverpool fans were crushing outside the ground, how come nowhere else in the 80's had this issue, were there no traffic or turnstile issues at any other ground at any other point back in that era

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the liverpool fans acted in a manner that they shouldnt have

[7-2]

Crush at the turnstiles started well before kick off- failure of crowd control. One of the other conclusions the jury reached was the failure of the authorities to delay kick off and allow everyone in safely,  a major contribution to the disaster. As pointed out above-large crowds need to be managed. That was a failure of the authorities' 'duty of care', not a failure on the part of the fans.

 

The crowd control obviously wasn't what it should have been but what about the responsibility of the individual not to add to a crush? Where's my duty of care to the folk in front of me just because I want into the game?

[54_and_counting]

The police. There had been measures in place at previous games to avoid crushes outside the ground and they had worked. At this game they didn't bother. Whichever way you paint there was no crowd control from the police whatsoever. Opening the gates had also been done previously at Hillsborough, I think that is the key issue. There were known problems with the stadium and nothing was ever done to resolve them or reduce the risk.

People are missing the point, just because a large crowd of fans were able to amass outside the ground, doesnt give them the right to crush and force their way closer to the ground,

Yes the police, the fa, and swfc take a chunk of the blame, that isn't in question, but is it acceptable to act as the fans did outside?

[Tom Rogic]

Who said i know better, my opinion is that the Liverpool fans were partly at fault, hence my surprise at them being cleared of any blame

Wether there is traffic issues, turnstile issues, doesn't cover up the fact that liverpool fans were crushing outside the ground, how come nowhere else in the 80's had this issue, were there no traffic or turnstile issues at any other ground at any other point back in that era

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the liverpool fans acted in a manner that they shouldnt have

Well you clearly do think you know better since you are stating that, unlike the inquiry findings the supporters were to blame

And your point about it starting with Liverpool fans crushing outside the ground, I have detailed the 2 main reasons for that i.e the roadworks & the inadequate amount of turnstiles (seem to recall a figure of 24 turnstiles for 13,500 peoples) neither of which is attributable to those inside or outside the stadium.

Unless you are stupid it isnt difficult to understand

[NewBlue]

Who said i know better, my opinion is that the Liverpool fans were partly at fault, hence my surprise at them being cleared of any blame

Wether there is traffic issues, turnstile issues, doesn't cover up the fact that liverpool fans were crushing outside the ground, how come nowhere else in the 80's had this issue, were there no traffic or turnstile issues at any other ground at any other point back in that era

Or perhaps, just perhaps, the liverpool fans acted in a manner that they shouldnt have

 

"In fact, Taylor noted only two occasions when the entry at Leppings Lane had been the sole access to the north and west sides of the ground, at the 1987 and 1988 semi-finals, with evidence of congestion at both, but owing to good fortune and circumstance police policy "was not put to the same test and strain as a year later".

 

In other words this was an unusual circumstance that should have bee planned for and wasn't, that's why there wasn't problems all the time at other games.

[dogmc]

The fans were not in a position to know what was happening in front of them and and given that there had not been a fatal incident on this scale previously they would have been largely oblivious to the potential consequences of a crush. Even if they had been....once you are at the back and other people come in behind you its impossible to extricate yourself from the crowd. Too many people arrived too quickly. The reason there hadn't been a fatal incident at other matches was down to better police crowd control and frankly good luck. I worked in cinemas for 16 years and always one of the biggest issues was managing large crowds on busy days (albeit nowhere near the numbers at big games). It's incredibly difficult and requires both detailed planning and cool headed decisions on the ground. None of that happened at Hillsborough. The behaviour of the Liverpool fans was no different to those at other games when no fatalities occurred. Had the police done their jobs properly there would have been no crush.

[Theo Snelders]

The crowd control obviously wasn't what it should have been but what about the responsibility of the individual not to add to a crush? Where's my duty of care to the folk in front of me just because I want into the game?

Please refer to my previous post about fans being unable to control their movements in the crowd once enveloped within.

Crowd control wasn't what it should have been? It was practically non-existant!

Maybe if you read some witness accounts that would help.

[dogmc]

If you do want to look at scummy fan behaviour though try Liverpool fans in Athens when they tried to charge into the stadium without tickets putting their own fans at risk fully aware of the potential consequences.

[dogmc]

The crowd control obviously wasn't what it should have been but what about the responsibility of the individual not to add to a crush? Where's my duty of care to the folk in front of me just because I want into the game?

How do they stop themselves joining the crowd when there are hundreds of people joining the crowd behind them?

[Biscuits]

Once you're caught up in a big crowd there is literally nothing you can do about it. Been caught up a few times and it's fuckin scary.

Someone hit the nail on the head earlier - the cover up is worse than the initial errors.

If all the authorities involved had just admitted the mistakes at the time then it could have been dealt with appropriately.

The fact that it took the families 27 years to get justice is a fuckin outrage and if it wasn't for the sheer determination of them to achieve this then today might never have happened.

JFT96

[7-2]

Please refer to my previous post about fans being unable to control their movements in the crowd once enveloped within.

Crowd control wasn't what it should have been? It was practically non-existant!

Maybe if you read some witness accounts that would help.

 

I have read some of the reports by the Liverpool fans. Ok, we obviously need to just agree to disagree on this as we're about to start going round in circles. 

[wellfan09]

53_and_counting and 7-2, I'd give up lads they don't seem to be able to understand your argument its aw ra polises fault...