Hillsborough debate

[Desert Nomad]

Here's the clip of the Tottenham fans at Hillsborough in the 81 semi:

Now also look at the following video of the Leeds v Coventry semi at the same venue. Note that when Coventry score at the Kop it is bedlam but you can see bodies& the obvious steeper terrace helps. Look at the Leeds fans on Leppings Lane. All you can see are faces on an obviously shallow terrace, it looks so dangerous just looking at it.

[H_B]

(Serious question btw, HB, not trying to trap you here, but do you think Ibrox was caused by irresponsibility on the part of some of the fans as well?)

I don't know enough about Ibrox. I only vaguely know that the crush was caused by fans who had decided to leave changing their minds and trying to come back.

Wouldn't like to comment on their behaviour and way of doing this.

I would say though that it doesn't take many people to create a panic.

[Desert Nomad]

And again footage from the Liverpool v Forest semi at Hillsborough in 1988, packed into cages like sardines into a tin.

[KnightswoodBear]

I don't know enough about Ibrox. I only vaguely know that the crush was caused by fans who had decided to leave changing their minds and trying to come back.

Wouldn't like to comment on their behaviour and way of doing this.

I would say though that it doesn't take many people to create a panic.

From what I know of the events at Ibrox, a barrier on the very steep stairwell collapsed causing people to fall on people below them on the stairs, who then fell causing a domino effect down the stairwell.

[Yoss]

I don't know enough about Ibrox. I only vaguely know that the crush was caused by fans who had decided to leave changing their minds and trying to come back.

Wouldn't like to comment on their behaviour and way of doing this.

I would say though that it doesn't take many people to create a panic.

Okay. For the record, that bit I've highlighted is a myth as well, though it was one that had considerable circulation, and it was the way the disaster was first told to me as well.

You're right, it doesn't take that many to create a panic, in the wrong circumstances. But those "not many" don't have to be doing anything particularly extraordinary, unusual or irresponsible, in the wrong circumstances, either. At ibrox people were simply trying to leave down a stairway, as they did every match. No one inidividual was doing anything wrong or applying undue force, but they didn't need to be for it to become a crush.

[H_B]

From what I know of the events at Ibrox, a barrier on the very steep stairwell collapsed causing people to fall on people below them on the stairs, who then fell causing a domino effect down the stairwell.

Cheers. I'm happy to acknowledge I know nothing at all about the disaster.

That sounds very different to Hillsborough. I don't see on the face of it how Rangers fans can be blamed for that in any way.

[KnightswoodBear]

Cheers. I'm happy to acknowledge I know nothing at all about the disaster.

That sounds very different to Hillsborough. I don't see on the face of it how Rangers fans can be blamed for that in any way.

As Yoss says, the theory that folk had left then decided to come back in after a late goal was scored has been thrown into doubt over the years.

[magee84]

There was a very moving documentary about Ibrox on BBC, its also available on YouTube.

One witness said it was started by a boy on someones shoulders who tripped causing a domino effect of bodies falling on top of one another.

[Yoss]

Cheers. I'm happy to acknowledge I know nothing at all about the disaster.

That sounds very different to Hillsborough. I don't see on the face of it how Rangers fans can be blamed for that in any way.

It's pretty similar. The barrier at Ibrox didn't collapse for no reason, it did so because the crush was already underway - and as at Hillsborough there's no need to posit that the people at the top of the slope were putting on any undue pressure - they thought they were just in the normal sort-of-queue to get out (or in, in Hillsborough's case). In both cases poor stadium design, inadequate / collapsing barriers / bad luck and a host of other factors combined to turn the sort of unpleasant crush (which, in both venues, had already occurred on previous occasions) into disaster.

Edited September 13, 2012 by Yoss

[H_B]

It's pretty similar.

Not really, given that is has been established that there were a number of Liverpool fans behaving disgracefully at Hillsborough.

I have no idea why stating that fact always attracts a "yeah but no but yeah but no but" response, followed by some whataboutery.

Liverpool fans at Hillsborough's poor behaviour was a contributory factor in the disaster. I have no idea if this was the case at Ibrox. It sounds very different, though I am willing to accept that Rangers fans too behaved dreadfully, if those present's testimony bears that out.

[H_B]

You have to decide if you want to defend this behaviour or not, or characterise it as "normal football fan behaviour, nothing to see here" :-

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

I am not.

Edited September 13, 2012 by H_B

[magee84]

Not really, given that is has been established that there were a number of Liverpool fans behaving disgracefully at Hillsborough.

Liverpool fans at Hillsborough's poor behaviour was a contributory factor in the disaster. I have no idea if this was the case at Ibrox. It sounds very different, though I am willing to accept that Rangers fans too behaved dreadfully, if those present's testimony bears that out.

No there were not.

Two inquiries and the Prime Minister have stated so.

Obviously they were wrong then and you know better.

There may well have been some pissed up neds amongst them, something ive seen at just about every game ive been to, but they in no way contributed to the events of the disaster

[H_B]

No there were not.

Two inquiries and the Prime Minister have stated so.

Is this going to require a world record number of quotations of the exact same line from the Taylor report?

Let's go for 4th time lucky.

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

[Guest Kincardine]

I don't know enough about Ibrox. I only vaguely know that the crush was caused by fans who had decided to leave changing their minds and trying to come back.

See, this like saying Hillsborough was caused by jakey Scousers pushing their way to the front. It wasn't but it was the rhetoric at the time.

Same with Ibrox. The papers blamed it on 'The Subway Loyal' trying to get back up after Colin Stein equalised. This turned out to be rubbish.

What we've learned over the past couple of days is that Hillsborough was down to bad stadium design and bad policing.

What happened at Ibrox was just down to bad design.

Maybe other Bears who went to Ibrox before the redevelopment could confirm this. The stairways were so steep that the best things to put on your feet was a set of crampons.

[magee84]

Is this going to require a world record number of quotations of the exact same line from the Taylor report?

Let's go for 4th time lucky.

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

Yes you have quoted one line from Taylors report totally out of context, he later goes on to say that the behaviour and actions of the fans played NO part in the ensuing tragedy.

Despite the findings of various reports and all the documents and statements that came out yesterday you it would seem are among the trolling minority who want to villify and slander the survivors and the dead.

Away and read your Sun ya fucking walloper.

[wintonfan]

it is very clear that very few folk on here have actually been involved in crushes be it at football or elsewhere, been caught up in a few and all it takes for the domino effect to take hold is for 1 or 2 to walk a little bit faster than usual and they lean on the person in front which causes the ripple. Believe it or not one of my worst was in Glasgow Central Station, usual chaos with trains cancelled and a big crowd of about 6-700 had built up at the old small departure board which used to be opposite the shops heading towards platforms 10-13, a train was announced heading to ayr so all the folk going to paisley and ayrshire started heading in that direction, because I am tall and could see above the crowd I could see that scotrail were operating a barrier, this was in the days that there was also the old virgin building in front of the old carpark and it was a bottleneck in those days. I and a few others deliverately slowed and was leaning back, I was in about the middle as the crush was developing towards the front and started yelling at folk behind to shop and give each other a bit of space, the crowd basically flowed like lava and some of the smaller folk were getting crushed, because I could stand my ground and take a bit of the crush from behind it just gave this woman in front some space.

as usual the scotrail stewards and btp didnt do anything, nowadays the area is far more open and crowds can move easier

[H_B]

Yes you have quoted one line from Taylors report totally out of context

You don't know what out of context means you utter imbecile.

You really should leave this thread, and let the adults carry on with the discussion. I know it's anathema for a Celtic fan to leave a thread where grief is involved, but try it.

[H_B]

it is very clear that very few folk on here have actually been involved in crushes be it at football or elsewhere, been caught up in a few and all it takes for the domino effect to take hold is for 1 or 2 to walk a little bit faster than usual and they lean on the person in front which causes the ripple.

That's exactly right. It takes incredibly few people to cause a crush situation. In fact in any crowd dynamic, it takes very few people to cause chaos.

[Mr. Brightside]

Despite the findings of various reports and all the documents and statements that came out yesterday you it would seem are among the trolling minority who want to villify and slander the survivors and the dead.

Away and read your Sun ya fucking walloper.

No he's not, he is giving the fans some of the blame, which is what should have happened from the start. He has also said nothing about the dead, so why don't you fuck off you terrorist supporting cunt.

[magee84]

You don't know what out of context means you utter imbecile.

You really should leave this thread, and let the adults carry on with the discussion. I know it's anathema for a Celtic fan to leave a thread where grief is involved, but try it.

'The adults'

From a moron trolling like a ten old trying to slander the survivors and the dead.

Your mother must be proud of you son eh ?