H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The ticketless and drunken element has been addressed by Taylor and have rightfully been eliminated as you highlight. Are there cited examples of the poor behaviour of Liverpool fans at Hillsborough recorded anywhere? Yes. I have already quoted the relevant section from the Taylor Report. It's in Chapter 10. "Had a decision to postpone kick-off been made and announced much of the frustration and with it the impetus crushing the crowd would have been reduced." "In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I've read about half a dozen posts on the thread and realised that if I read any more it's going to make me a bit angry. I am pleased that the truth has now more or less been acknowledged, even if there was not really any excuse for anyone not to have been aware of it already. I'm not so bothered about whether or not there are prosecutions, and I'd be wary of scapegoating a small number of individuals for such widespread institutional failings, but yesterday was a good day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 i'm sure i've seen video of crushing outside the ground. that is poor behaviour by the liverpool fans. the bottom line is that liverpool fans were killed by crushing. the force of the crush was created by liverpool fans. blaming the police and the fa for the deaths is the equivalent of blaming us airport security and the cia for 9//11. The crush happened because thousands of people were funnelled into a narrow tunnel. The same thing happened at the Love Parade festival in Duisburg in 2010 and left approx 20 dead after a crush in a (fairly large) tunnel. The German crush was attributed to a mass panic, which occurred due to the sheer weight of people being channelled into a concrete tunnel. You continue to deny the true cause of the Hillsborough Disaster and attribute it to Liverpool supporters acting negligently even in the face of the evidence presented by the Taylor Report and the latest Hillsborough Enquiry and seemingly refuse to change your position even after it has been proven that the actions of the supporters were not the cause of the disaster. To steadfastly refuse to change your opinion even after it's been proven wrong? There's a word for that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 the evidence presented by the Taylor Report ...... after it has been proven that the actions of the supporters were not the cause of the disaster. . The Taylor report specifically notes that the supporters' actions were a contributory cause of the disaster. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Someone mentioned convictions a couple of pages ago and said would the Liverpool fans be charge. Of course they won't, for one, there is really no one to identify those who pushed, and two after Cameron took the position of not blaming them at all, the uproar would be catastrophic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Everyone at the back of the crowd pushed, what's that got to do with anything? I doubt very much that this was the case. Crowds can act as a concerted body, but there are also individual behaviours within a crowd element to consider. Some people behave well, others do not. Edited September 13, 2012 by H_B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Everyone at the back of the crowd pushed, what's that got to do with anything? There was a crowd. Crowds behave as crowds do, they were trying to get from one place to another in order to see a football match. That's why there needs to be some basic management of it. There was nothing the least bit exceptional or unusual in the behaviour of the crowd that day, nothing that none of us who've ever attended an event of that scale or nature wouldn't do and haven't done, they were failed miserably by incompetence and mismanagement before, during, and (most appallingly) after the build-up to the match. Um, everything? And I doubt every single person pushed. So every crowd pushed into confined areas? I see, and you know this how? Actually, I have to say, I have never pushed whilst in a crowd. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The Taylor report specifically notes that the supporters' actions were a contributory cause of the disaster. Correct, but it also notes that it was not the sole factor and that the entrance facilities, terrace, police and planning all played a part. So to say that "the bottom line is that the fans caused it" is grossly incorrect and wildly inaccurate. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 So is everyone saying that if they're ever admitted to a gig / football match / any other such event, once they're through thr turnstyle they make no attempt to get to the arena from which the concert / match / whatever is visible, you just stand there inside the gate saying nah, actually I don't think I'll bother? That's all I mean by "pushing". And it's all it takes, in the wrong circumstances, for it to become very dangerous. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 So is everyone saying that if they're ever admitted to a gig / football match / any other such event, once they're through thr turnstyle they make no attempt to get to the arena from which the concert / match / whatever is visible, you just stand there inside the gate saying nah, actually I don't think I'll bother? That's all I mean by "pushing". And it's all it takes, in the wrong circumstances, for it to become very dangerous. So by pushing you mean, going through a turnstile? You have an odd definition of pushing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 So to say that "the bottom line is that the fans caused it" is grossly incorrect and wildly inaccurate. I would mostly agree with that. He is correct in purely descriptive terms of the incident (i.e. it was the fans behind who caused the crushing) but that doesn't tell the whole story and isn't particularly helpful as a statement. Where I differ from some others on this thread is that to me it is highly possible that even had the fans all behaved impeccably, a disaster may well have occurred due to the other more obvious issues. The disgraceful behaviour of some Liverpool fans on the day shouldn't take away from that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Maybe you meant something different by it. What happened at Hillsborough, as at Ibrox, was lots of people all tried to get somewhere at once, having no idea what was happening in front. That's a push, if you like. Or not, if you don't want to call it that, I'm not bothered about the choice of word. If you meant to imply that there were some fans who were "pushing" in the sense of deliberately using considerable force to try and get forward knowing there was already little or no space to do so then no, that's not what happened and it's not how these things work. The crush is created by the addition of new people at the back who aren't, by themselves, applying any sort of abnormal force and have no idea of there being a problem further forward. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 As an aside, I found myself angered by the sight of Kenny Dalglish at the ceremony yesterday. A man who besmirched the innocent at Heysel to excuse the hooliganism by Liverpool fans standing sombrely at a momorial on a day when the besmirched Liverpool fans were cleared. When is he going to apologise for his lies about Heysel? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 What I meant by "pushing" was that people were, in fact, pushing to get in. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 If you meant to imply that there were some fans who were "pushing" in the sense of deliberately using considerable force to try and get forward knowing there was already little or no space to do so then no, that's not what happened and it's not how these things work. . It is how these things work, and it's called negligence. They don't need to know that there are problems far ahead. The people behind me at the Edinburgh Hogmanay event didn't know that further down there were people being crushed against the barriers. I knew this, because I'm quite tall and could see far ahead of me. They didn't care though about others' safety or comfort. They just wanted into a crowded area and to get closer to the front so they shoved those in front of them impatienty and recklessly. That's exactly how crowd crushes happen. And as the Taylor Report notes, that's exactly what happened at Hillsborough also. To what extent, only those present know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Pete Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I would mostly agree with that. He is correct in purely descriptive terms of the incident (i.e. it was the fans behind who caused the crushing) but that doesn't tell the whole story and isn't particularly helpful as a statement. Where I differ from some others on this thread is that to me it is highly possible that even had the fans all behaved impeccably, a disaster may well have occurred due to the other more obvious issues. The disgraceful behaviour of some Liverpool fans on the day shouldn't take away from that. I agree with the statements in bold. The recipe was always there, and would likely have occurred without any other spark than numbers versus available space. It is simply untrue to state, categorically and without mention of other, arguably more prevalent factors, that fans caused this to happen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 The disgraceful behaviour of some Liverpool fans on the day Again, there was nothing abnormal or unusual (or unusually disgraceful) about Liverpool fans behaviour on that day, they behaved just as football crowds do. (If you think all such crowds are "disgraceful" then fair enough, but I'll leave you to it.) As an aside, I found myself angered by the sight of Kenny Dalglish at the ceremony yesterday. A man who besmirched the innocent at Heysel to excuse the hooliganism by Liverpool fans standing sombrely at a momorial on a day when the besmirched Liverpool fans were cleared. I have to agree with you there though. What I meant by "pushing" was that people were, in fact, pushing to get in. Again, only in the sense of trying to get somewhere. People were arriving at the top of the terrace, other people were arriving behind them, it doesn't need a "push" in any exceptional sense over and beyond that to create a crush. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Nonsense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 (If you think all such crowds are "disgraceful" then fair enough, but I'll leave you to it.) I don't like to personify a crowd. I prefer personal responsibility over demonising a group of disparate people as a single entity. I expect the majority of Liverpool fans behaved well. A minority did not. That's pretty much the case with all football crowds of course. Them being Liverpool fans is neither here nor there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 We're going to go round in circles here, but once again - crushes are not created by a small number of people within it exercising excessive force, they're created by people just trying to get from one place to another, having no idea that there's any push further forward. Ibrox the same, people were trying to make their way to the exit, just as they normally would. There was no excessive or abnormal force, just the kind of numbers of people that can quickly be very dangerous through the "fault" of no one involved, if something happens or if the set-up is not properly designed to deal with it. (Serious question btw, HB, not trying to trap you here, but do you think Ibrox was caused by irresponsibility on the part of some of the fans as well?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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