Hillsborough debate

[Mr. Brightside]

'The adults'

From a moron trolling like a ten old trying to slander the survivors and the dead.

Your mother must be proud of you son eh ?

Again, slandering the dead, where exactly has this happened in the entire thread?

[H_B]

Your mother must be proud of you son eh ?

Pretty much, yep. It's what mothers do.

[magee84]

No he's not, he is giving the fans some of the blame, which is what should have happened from the start. He has also said nothing about the dead, so why don't you fuck off you terrorist supporting cunt.

He and scum like you are the only ones trying to blame the fans despite all the officials exonarating them.

And i aint no terrorist supporter rubber nut but if my grandads name offends you then i find that pleasing.

Now go and do your trolling elsewhere you fucking clown.

[Yoss]

You have to decide if you want to defend this behaviour or not, or characterise it as "normal football fan behaviour, nothing to see here" :-

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

I am not.

Perhaps you're reading something more unusual and violent into the word "pushing" than I am, but of course that's normal behaviour. People who have got into a football match and are not yet onto the terracing where they can see it are going to be trying to get to the terraces. Sure, if it's already obvious that there's insufficient room, that there's a serious crush, it'd be another thing, but that's not how crowd dynamics work - the ones at the back who are simply trying to get to where they want to be don't and can't have any idea that there's anything serious or unusual happening further forward. There's nothing "disgraceful" going on there (and nor did Taylor suggest so, that's only your riff on it).

[Guest Kincardine]

He and scum like you are the only ones trying to blame the fans despite all the officials exonarating them.

And i aint no terrorist supporter rubber nut but if my grandads name offends you then i find that pleasing.

Now go and do your trolling elsewhere you fucking clown.

Oh calm down. We're trying to have a sensible discussion. No need to bring your grandad in to it.

[H_B]

Perhaps you're reading something more unusual and violent into the word "pushing" than I am,

It's more the "impatiently" I would say is important.

"Pushing impatiently" creates an image we can all identify with. Especially those of us who have been part of large crowds at football grounds in the 80s.

In terms of "people trying to get somewhere" - there are different ways to get from points A to B, when thousands of other people are also trying to get from Point A to B.

Edited September 13, 2012 by H_B

[Mr. Brightside]

He and scum like you are the only ones trying to blame the fans despite all the officials exonarating them.

And i aint no terrorist supporter rubber nut but if my grandads name offends you then i find that pleasing.

Now go and do your trolling elsewhere you fucking clown.

No we aren't, you're clearly an even bigger moron if you think this.

Yes you are, a terrorist supporting scumbag, who should be banned from this website for being a terrorist supporter, somehow you haven't been.

[magee84]

No we aren't, you're clearly an even bigger moron if you think this.

Yes you are, a terrorist supporting scumbag, who should be banned from this website for being a terrorist supporter, somehow you haven't been.

When you provide any post or statement i have made on this forum that equates to supporting terrorism i will concede ground to you.

You will in fact find all my views and posts on the IRA and similar subjects are in fact totally decrying them and slaughtering people who sing about them at football. A stand i have consistenly made.

Clearly you are a hate filled idiot who hasnt a scooby what he's on about and no evidence to back up his ludicrous claims.

Edited September 13, 2012 by magee84

[Guest Kincardine]

Yes you are, a terrorist supporting scumbag, who should be banned from this website for being a terrorist supporter, somehow you haven't been.

Actually I think you're being a bit strong.

I almost never agree with Magee's posts. However, I can't recall a single one that shows he is a, "a terrorist supporter"

[Desert Nomad]

it is very clear that very few folk on here have actually been involved in crushes be it at football or elsewhere, been caught up in a few and all it takes for the domino effect to take hold is for 1 or 2 to walk a little bit faster than usual and they lean on the person in front which causes the ripple. Believe it or not one of my worst was in Glasgow Central Station, usual chaos with trains cancelled and a big crowd of about 6-700 had built up at the old small departure board which used to be opposite the shops heading towards platforms 10-13, a train was announced heading to ayr so all the folk going to paisley and ayrshire started heading in that direction, because I am tall and could see above the crowd I could see that scotrail were operating a barrier, this was in the days that there was also the old virgin building in front of the old carpark and it was a bottleneck in those days. I and a few others deliverately slowed and was leaning back, I was in about the middle as the crush was developing towards the front and started yelling at folk behind to shop and give each other a bit of space, the crowd basically flowed like lava and some of the smaller folk were getting crushed, because I could stand my ground and take a bit of the crush from behind it just gave this woman in front some space.

as usual the scotrail stewards and btp didnt do anything, nowadays the area is far more open and crowds can move easier

Believe it or not I can remember being brought off my feet due to fans crushing at the NEW Ibrox Stadium. I was young at the time (11-12), but I can remember being pretty scared descending the staircase from the Broomloan upper tier after a Rangers v United cup-tie. Had anyone stumbled, particularly a child or older person it might have been really bad. Rangers had gone to the unusual step of giving United the whole of the Broomloan upper tier for the game which was on a Wednesday night after the weekend game was postponed due to a water-logged pitch. It was a night of high drama as a 2-2 draw was fought out. What caused the crushing I`m unsure about, perhaps just general high spirits after a dramatic game or some supporters desperate to get out & back back home with work the next day. Whatever the cause it just goes to show that the potential for accidents is always there.

[Mr. Brightside]

Actually I think you're being a bit strong.

I almost never agree with Magee's posts. However, I can't recall a single one that shows he is a, "a terrorist supporter"

His username tells you all you need to know, he's obviously not going to come out publicly and say he's a terrorist supporter.

[fueradejuego]

Yes. I have already quoted the relevant section from the Taylor Report.

It's in Chapter 10.

"Had a decision to postpone kick-off been made and announced much of the frustration and with it the impetus crushing the crowd would have been reduced."

"In my view some officers, seeking to rationalise their loss of control, overestimated the drunken element in the crowd. There certainly was such an element. There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush. But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry. There was no criticism of the crowd by any of the witnesses in the period up to 2.30 pm or even 2.35 pm. What happened then was not a sudden deterioration in the mood or sobriety of those assembled there. No doubt those coming behind would have had more to drink and would have included the unruly minority. But the crisis developed because this very large crowd became packed into a confined turnstile area and its very density hampered its passage through the turnstiles."

Not really, given that is has been established that there were a number of Liverpool fans behaving disgracefully at Hillsborough.

Liverpool fans at Hillsborough's poor behaviour was a contributory factor in the disaster.

You have to decide if you want to defend this behaviour or not, or characterise it as "normal football fan behaviour, nothing to see here" :-

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

I am not.

I suppose it depends upon how you interpret Taylor's report.

Immediately following the section which you highlight:-

"There were youngsters influenced by drink and bravado pushing impatiently at the rear of the crowd thereby exacerbating the crush."

The following comments of :-

"But the more convincing police witnesses, including especially Detective Superintendent McKay and Chief Inspector Creaser as well as a number of responsible civilian witnesses, were in my view right in describing this element as a minority. Those witnesses attributed the crush to the sheer numbers of fans all anxious to gain entry"

are arguably just as important. Of course minority is not quantified and that is the real issue.

Was the minority 10 bams or was it 100 bams within a crowd of thousands?

The problem now is we will never know but this section of the report provides ample space for both sides to interpret it as they see fit.

It's the section that is used to denigrate Liverpool fans but those who dislike the club etc. As I have said previously, I really don't care about Liverpool. I am completely indifferent to them but the manner in which myths etc have been perpetuated around this issue is what I find particularly appalling.

[magee84]

His username tells you all you need to know, he's obviously not going to come out publicly and say he's a terrorist supporter.

Ive explained my username dozens of times here.

And when the similarity to the Brighton guy was pointed out i explained it to a mod.

I also said even though i have done nout wrong if they wanted id change it. They havent asked me to do so, thats good enough for me.

And as ive pointed out in a previous post ive constantly slated idiots who tarnish my football club by chanting all that shite.

My dad came over to Scotland at the height of 'the troubles' and had to put up with all that shite because of his accent and the fact he was a Catholic. He detests the IRA and their cowardly crimes, as do i.

Subject closed

[Mr. Brightside]

Yeah, yeah. I believe you.

[Jimmy85]

I hope we're not suggesting the IRA are partly culpable for Hillsborough here. Div's already had contact from the legal team representing Lomas. You don't want the IRA on your case tbh.

[Jacksgranda]

I hope we're not suggesting the IRA are partly culpable for Hillsborough here. Div's already had contact from the legal team representing Lomas. You don't want the IRA on your case tbh.

We don't need to worry, they've all retired and become community workers, community spokesmen, cross community outreach officers or politicians. The more hard line have become "community activists".

[Swampy]

Why would you ever put someone's age as part of your username? Birth year, sure, but age?

[Jimmy85]

Why would you ever put someone's age as part of your username? Birth year, sure, but age?

It seemed like a good idea at the time tbh.

[JamboMikey]

I wonder what this imaginary grandad would say if he saw the absolute drivel his grandson has attached to his name.

[vikingTON]

Which is a load of complete rubbish. As I've said before, if there isn't the resource to police Friday games then I think it's fair enough for them to not be organisable if clubs can't cover the requirements in other ways (e.g. Motherwell's experiment to use of greater number of stewards). Clubs haven't protested against that principle, either.

But there are enough resources: you have simply accepted bulshit from the police without question, exactly the sort of stock happy-clappism organisations rely on in order for disgraceful cover-ups to occur.

Police forces should never be assumed to automatically work in the best interests of the public, nor justice.