roverthemoon Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Just start at the beginning of this thread and re-read all the posts to dates guys. It'll save another retread of the justice v brought it on themselves pish 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Oh, and Cameron said that there's no evidence that Liverpool fans were to blame at all. So the evidence the Taylor report collected is a fabrication then Cameron? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 justice v brought it on themselves pish See, this is really annoying. You are far from the first to misrepresent the views of people, and I'm sure you won't be the last. Absolutely no one has suggested those who died "brought it on themselves" or were in any way culpable. this is so obvious, it shouldn't need to be mentioned, but it seems it does. Those Liverpool fans to blame were those at the back, entering late, whose disgraceful negligence contributed to the crushes which killed those further down. Simples. -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 So the evidence the Taylor report collected is a fabrication then Cameron? I'm sure he said that the Taylor report was 'innappropriate' or some such rhetoric. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim McLean's Ghost Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 No. People were left to die who could have been saved after 3.15 pm. It's official. There is no 'I'm sure' about it. Those in charge fucked up and have blood on their hands. Were paramedics standing around doing f**k all. Is that documented anywhere? Did the emergency services pack up for a tea break at 3:15pm? The issue that the enquiry refused to accept evidence after 3:15 doesn't mean everything just stopped. Emergency service response was slow but claiming people were callously left to die is stupid. They may have been left to die because others more likely to be saved were given priority. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 the truth is people at the back pushed and people at the front got crushed. apparently they don't teach newton's laws of motion on merseyside. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I'm sure he said that the Taylor report was 'innappropriate' or some such rhetoric. Mmmm... clearly decided that appeasing the Liverpudlian wolves is the easiest course of action. I don't think such rewriting of history helps though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Co.Down Hibee Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 They've already been partly blamed. In the Taylor Report. The part of the Taylor report Liverpool fans gloss over and pretend isn't there. As I say every time this topic emerges, the only absolute fact is that Liverpool fans were partly to blame and the police were partly to blame. Where you apportion that blame percentage wise, can be debated. People who claim, as I have heard a number of times, that the Liverpool fanbase was blameless are lying. well said 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gy diamond Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Oh, and Cameron said that there's no evidence that Liverpool fans were to blame at all. What? How can anyone say they weren't partly to blame? I really get the feeling this is a tell them what they want to hear so we don't have to keep going over this time and time again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What? How can anyone say they weren't partly to blame? I really get the feeling this is a tell them what they want to hear so we don't have to keep going over this time and time again. It's not going to change anyone's view I don't think, but Cameron's direct quote was something along the lines of Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster". He's chosen his words carefully - but the rest of what he said really did turn towards laying the blame at the door of the police and emergency services. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I really get the feeling this is a tell them what they want to hear so we don't have to keep going over this time and time again. Yep. There's no real downside for Cameron here in doing that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It's not going to change anyone's view I don't think, but Cameron's direct quote was something along the lines of Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster". Ah, that is very different from the original post. Indeed, LJ Taylor says something quite similar, which is always seized upon and twisted by Liverpool fans to be "The Taylor report exhonerates Liverpool fans", which it absolutely doesn't. I still think Cameron is wrong though with that choice of words. "Sole cause" or even "primary cause" would have been acceptable. Cameron is actually factually incorrect with that statement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Ah, that is very different from the original post. Indeed, LJ Taylor says something quite similar, which is always seized upon and twisted by Liverpool fans to be "The Taylor report exhonerates Liverpool fans", which it absolutely doesn't. I still think Cameron is wrong though with that choice of words. "Sole cause" or even "primary cause" would have been acceptable. Cameron is actually factually incorrect with that statement. Yeah, sorry about that, I was trying to remember as much of what was said as possible. I'll have forgotten bits and pieces too probably. I'd like to see the report before commenting too much on it's findings. I was always of a similar opinion to yourself, but there's a lot more available information for this report than the Taylor report, so the findings should be interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 How propaganda works in the UK: It was more than 15 years ago and still some shops boycott the Sun - such was the calamitous effect of the Sun's front page claims that Liverpool fans urinated on police, pick-pocketed dead victims and prevented brave PCs giving the kiss of life to some of the victims at Hillsborough.And although the editor at the time, Kelvin MacKenzie, later apologised, there will never be any room for the Sun in some Liverpudlian households ever again. It all started on the Wednesday following the Hillsborough disaster in April 1989, when MacKenzie was about to make what he later described as a "fundamental mistake". According to Peter Chippindale and Chris Horrie in their definitive history Stick it Up Your Punter - the Rise and Fall of the Sun, MacKenzie spent an unusual amount of time deliberating over the fateful headline for that day's paper. "MacKenzie then did an enormously uncharacteristic thing. He sat for fully half an hour thinking about the front page layout." According to the book he pondered two headlines, one that was rejected reading "You Scum", and the one that was eventually used - and was to prove the biggest disaster for the paper's reputation and sales: "The Truth". A team of about 18 journalists and photographers had been sent to cover the story, and although reporter Harry Arnold sought out MacKenzie to caution against reporting allegations as truth, MacKenzie pressed on. Having decided to lay the blame on the fans' doorsteps, there was no stopping him. Under the headline "The Truth" there were three subheadings: Some fans picked pockets of victims Some fans urinated on the brave cops Some fans beat up PCs giving the kiss of life The story read as follows: "Drunken Liverpool fans viciously attacked rescue workers as they tried to revive victims of the Hillsborough soccer disaster, it was revealed last night. "Police officers, firemen and ambulance crew were punched, kicked and urinated upon by a hooligan element in the crowd. "Some thugs rifled the pockets of injured fans as they were stretched out unconscious on the pitch. "Sheffield MP Irvine Patnick revealed that in one shameful episode a gang of Liverpool fans noticed that the blouse of a girl trampled to death had risen above her breasts. "As a policeman struggled in vain to revive her, the mob jeered: 'Throw her up here and we will **** her'" The story went on: "One furious policeman who witnessed Saturday's carnage stormed: 'As we struggled in appalling conditions to save lives, fans standing further up the terrace were openly urinating on us and the bodies of the dead." A 'high-ranking' police officer was quoted as saying: "The fans were just acting like animals. My men faced a double hell - the disaster and the fury of the fans who attacked us." Kenny Dalglish, then Liverpool manager, later addressed the story in his autobiography: "When the Sun came out with the story about Liverpool fans being drunk and unruly underneath a headline 'The Truth,' the reaction on Merseyside was one of complete outrage. Newsagents stopped stocking the Sun. People wouldn't mention its name. They were burning copies of it. Anyone representing the Sun was abused. "Sun reporters and photographers would lie, telling people they worked for the Liverpool Post and Echo. There was a lot of harassment of them because of what had been written. The Star had gone a bit strong as well, but they apologised the next day. They knew the story had no foundation. Kelvin MacKenzie, the Sun's editor, even called me up. "'How can we correct the situation?" he said. "'You know that big headline - 'The Truth',' I replied. 'All you have to do is put 'We lied' in the same size. Then you might be all right.' "Mackenzie said: 'I cannot do that.' "'Well,' I replied, 'I cannot help you then.' "That was it. I put the phone down. Merseysiders were outraged by the Sun. A great many still are." It was four years later that the then publicity-averse Kelvin MacKenzie went public for the first time about the calamitous decision to call Liverpudlians liars and thieves who preyed off the dying and dead. "I regret Hillsborough," he said. "It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the chief superintendent had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it," he told the Commons national heritage committee in January, 1993. However, the Hillsborough survivors' group felt his words amounted to a less than sufficient apology. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For those interested, here's the Full account of what David Cameron said. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 To find the truth of the matter, go and read whatever Tony Evans has to say on the matter, and assume it to be romanticised tosh. The BBC website looks as if it gone through the lawyers hands, for all the little serious content there is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Sigh. The nonsense is out there. How about; Mackenzie is a p***k. The police behaved abhorrently beyond the point of negligence. And Liverpool fans were also directly responsible? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fife Saint Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 i'm sure there were people saved after 3:15pm. 700+ people were injured and it is hard to citicise medics for making medical choices about who is more deserving of care with limited medics able to assist. The point being that dozens of ambulances sat idle outside due to misinformation from the police. They maintained it was crowd trouble ie. Fighting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gy diamond Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Sigh. The nonsense is out there. How about; Mackenzie is a p***k. The police behaved abhorrently beyond the point of negligence. And Liverpool fans were also directly responsible? That would be far too sensible and there would be no way Liverpool fans would accept that they were at fault at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Those Liverpool fans to blame were those at the back, entering late, whose disgraceful negligence contributed to the crushes which killed those further down. Simples. Everyone knows any football crowd has a huge number of people who arrive at the turnstiles very close to kick off. Given the facilities and the way it was stewarded it would have happened with any set of fans that day. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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