Nizzy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Consistently, they have chosen to attack only one element of the problem. And that's the issue many people have with them. Bias and an unwillingness to face facts they don't like. And can you point me in the direction of a quote from any of the campaigners that states that pushing had no factor in the tragedy? You are of course aware that the small piece of the Taylor report you've quoted, while acknowledging some pushing, identifies the lack of crowd control as the main contributary factor to the tragedy. The 'standard behaviour' of these threads sees people determined to blame the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough make repeated sweeping references to hooliganism, ticketless fans and alcohol abuse in a wave of WUMism and willful ignorance. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigkillie Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 All 25,916 documents are available here. Includes stuff like witness statements, and presumably more stuff along similar lines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Maybe But let's be brutally honest here, Liverpool fans have got previous. Despite what they might like you to believe they really are a horrible bunch of fans What guff. Back that up? I follow them home and away and believe me there's plenty worse out there. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Brightside Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What guff. Back that up? I follow them home and away and believe me there's plenty worse out there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 And can you point me in the direction of a quote from any of the campaigners that states that pushing had no factor in the tragedy? You didn't answer my question. Instead, you answered it with a question. You are of course aware that the small piece of the Taylor report you've quoted, while acknowledging some pushing, identifies the lack of crowd control as the main contributary factor to the tragedy. Phew, it's really just as well that I at no point have claimed that pushing was the main contributory factor to the tragedy. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Doesn't matter - according to the partisans on here like T_S_A_R and Jim McLean's Ghost, anything after 3:15pm is still irrelevant. the coroner choosing long after the disaster to impose a 3:15 cut off to his investigation is completely irrelevant to the outcome of events on the day. no could have been saved due to the coroners choice of cut off at a later date. surely that is easily understandable? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) And can you point me in the direction of a quote from any of the campaigners that states that pushing had no factor in the tragedy? You are of course aware that the small piece of the Taylor report you've quoted, while acknowledging some pushing, identifies the lack of crowd control as the main contributary factor to the tragedy. The 'standard behaviour' of these threads sees people determined to blame the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough make repeated sweeping references to hooliganism, ticketless fans and alcohol abuse in a wave of WUMism and willful ignorance. you cannot have a crush without pushing. that is a simple fact. the people who pushed those in front of them to gain entry caused the disaster. if no one had pushed then what the police chose to do would be completely irrelevant. Edited September 12, 2012 by T_S_A_R 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greggy Wallace Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Were paramedics standing around doing f**k all. Is that documented anywhere? Did the emergency services pack up for a tea break at 3:15pm? The issue that the enquiry refused to accept evidence after 3:15 doesn't mean everything just stopped. Emergency service response was slow but claiming people were callously left to die is stupid. They may have been left to die because others more likely to be saved were given priority. It has been confirmed today that 41 people could potentially have survived with adequate treatment. 40 ambulances sat outside the ground while people died. You think that is acceptable and they did their best? What planet are you on mate? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swampy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 the coroner choosing long after the disaster to impose a 3:15 cut off to his investigation is completely irrelevant to the outcome of events on the day. no could have been saved due to the coroners choice of cut off at a later date. surely that is easily understandable? ... My reading a book on the US Civil War can't change the outcome of Appomattox. An eternal verity this is, to be sure, but do we even need to bring it up? Your unabashed glee at the cover-up is leading you to post some really, really strange things. Nobody is contending that the coroner is responsible for deaths. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nizzy Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You didn't answer my question. Instead, you answered it with a question. A pertinent question given your continued lambasting of the attitude of the campaigners. Phew, it's really just as well that I at no point have claimed that pushing was the main contributory factor to the tragedy. So what exactly is the point of you contributions? To, as I've said above, attack the attitudes of the campaigners, thus fuelling the aggressive and unsupported views of the forum's resident numbskulls? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 (edited) A pertinent question given your continued lambasting of the attitude of the campaigners. Answer my question. Then, by all means, I will answer yours. That's how it works. Why won't you answer the question? So what exactly is the point of you contributions? To prevent people repeating lies, unchallenged, as for example fuerodejuego did on the previous thread about this, that the Liverpool fans were absolutely not at fault for the tragedy. There are still people who believe this fallacy, proven by the fact that every single one of these threads attracts a few magee types, because they haven't actually read the Taylor Report, but have instead taken their truth from the Liverpool FC fans' propaganda machine. This is the agenda the Hillsborough campaigners have pushed from the beginning. It's tainted their campaign in my view and undone a lot of the good work which has been done. Edited September 12, 2012 by H_B -1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benjamin_Nevis Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What guff. Back that up? I follow them home and away and believe me there's plenty worse out there. He's here all week folks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gy diamond Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The 'standard behaviour' of these threads sees people determined to blame the Liverpool fans for Hillsborough make repeated sweeping references to hooliganism, ticketless fans and alcohol abuse in a wave of WUMism and willful ignorance. What no it's not 'the standard behaviour' these threads is people wanting Liverpool fans to accept their part in what happened instead of just blaming everyone else. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I follow them home and away and believe me there's plenty worse out there. But we are not talking about anyone else here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 How could supporters trying to head for a gateway opened by the police have known what was happening inside the ground? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 How could supporters trying to head for a gateway opened by the police have known what was happening inside the ground? They couldn't have. How can someone who throws a traffic cone over their shoulder off a bridge know there is someone below them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SimplyTON Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 taken from The Anfield Wrap article by Tony Evans http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2011/08/returning-to-the-nightmare-of-hillsborough/ "Then the first unusual thing happened. An exit gate suddenly opened and there we were, inside the ground, our tickets redundant. “See you later,” I said. “Tomorrow,” he replied. Then he walked down the tunnel. His next words to me came some 36 hours later: “Have you ever felt someone’s ribs breaking under your feet?” Why did you go down the tunnel? The question came 20 years later, after an emotional visit to Hillsborough, this time in waking hours. “I think,” Tony said, “I caught a glimpse of the pitch. That was it. I knew it was the worst place in the ground. But I saw the pitch. You know what it’s like when you see the pitch.” When gate C was opened on the orders of the chief superintendent, David Duckenfield, a man in charge of crowd control for the first time on FA Cup semi-final day, April 15, 1989, thousands of fans spilt into the stadium bemused and clutching tickets. The only entrance to the viewing areas visible as they surged in was the tunnel. It led to two pens that were already horribly overcrowded. Now they were about to become fatally so. “As soon as I was in the tunnel, I knew there were problems,” Tony said. “There was no going back. Just too many people. I kept telling myself to be calm, not to panic. I knew that if my head went down under the level of the crowd, I wouldn’t come back up. But the pushing just carried on. “Then I was out of the tunnel. I thought it was over, just for a second. Then I knew it was worse. Much worse.” People were still trying to force their way through the underpass, believing, like Tony, that the sunlight and terraces meant safety. Instead, horror waited. “I’d been turned around, facing away from the pitch, so I didn’t know what was happening behind the goal. It was hard to breathe and stay upright, but it had gone past the point of struggling and moving. My elbow was jammed into a fella’s neck and he was pleading with me to move it. He kept saying: ‘I can’t breathe, I’m dying.’ But I couldn’t move it. Then he stopped talking. His head went under.” 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Nomad Posted September 12, 2012 Author Share Posted September 12, 2012 It seems to me (although I could be missing something) that the decision of the FA to hold the fixture at a stadium not fit for purpose as gone somewhat under the radar. Did Liverpool & Nottingham Forest not both voice concerns after the semi-final between the clubs only 12 months previously? I heard on 5 Live in the car on the way home from work that Sheffield Wednesday had apologised for the poor condition of Hillsborough, but surely the FA should be releasing some sort of statement. Apologies if they already have, I`m playing catch-up a bit here. 5 Live also said they`d tried to contact Kelvin McKenzie, but with no luck, the silence from him is particularly deafening. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rab B Nesbit Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 But we are not talking about anyone else here. Your singling out the behaviour of Liverpool fans - im saying that the behaviour was typical of football fans and that the problems were caused by the poor facilities and crowd control. -2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~~~ Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Your singling out the behaviour of Liverpool fans - im saying that the behaviour was typical of football fans and that the problems were caused by the poor facilities and crowd control. I wasnt meaning at Hillsborough, just in general when it comes to Liverpool fans, and you are only kidding yourself if you think otherwise. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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