The Real Saints Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 they are all fairly straightforward examples and there are many more. in breaking walter finding an unlocked car with the keys in it just when the cops are arriving and uncle jack passing up two chances to kill walter for extremely strange reasons aren't just plotholes in the normal sense but extremely cliche as well. If you have a problem with it, you can feel free to interpret the finale in a different way. As you've said previously, you believe Jesse to be 'fucked' when he finally escapes. Some people will agree with you. And others, like myself, believe differently. Likewise, some people are willing to believe that Walt had a few lucky breaks in the finale which led to a kind of redemption at the end. On the other hand, maybe he died from the cold whilst trying to find the keys in that car. Maybe everything from that point onwards is sheer fantasy. You can make that your interpretation if it personally makes more sense to you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I think that a lot of the complaints about Breaking Bad that have been detailed are regarding plot contrivances as opposed to plot holes. There's a subtle difference. Plot holes (for me at least, as it appears to be loosely defined) describes making the impossible occur to further the plot. Plot contrivances is more about the extremely improbable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 If you have a problem with it, you can feel free to interpret the finale in a different way. As you've said previously, you believe Jesse to be 'fucked' when he finally escapes. Some people will agree with you. And others, like myself, believe differently. Likewise, some people are willing to believe that Walt had a few lucky breaks in the finale which led to a kind of redemption at the end. On the other hand, maybe he died from the cold whilst trying to find the keys in that car. Maybe everything from that point onwards is sheer fantasy. You can make that your interpretation if it personally makes more sense to you. i actually quite like the interpretation that everything from the keys falling from the sun visor is a fantasy. it's also perhaps worth wondering if jesse's fantasy scene where he is well dressed in a woodshop which cuts to the reality of todd in the meth lab is a hint that this is what's going on. the sopranos ending was confusing at first but it later became clear that everything you needed to know was there in the final episode and also foreshadowed in many previous episodes. this might be the same. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) i actually quite like the interpretation that everything from the keys falling from the sun visor is a fantasy. it's also perhaps worth wondering if jesse's fantasy scene where he is well dressed in a woodshop which cuts to the reality of todd in the meth lab is a hint that this is what's going on. the sopranos ending was confusing at first but it later became clear that everything you needed to know was there in the final episode and also foreshadowed in many previous episodes. this might be the same. I hate that sort of interpretation. The ending of Taxi Driver is the most prominent example I can think of where people do this. There is no foreshadowing that this might be a fantasy - indeed Jesse's fantasy which is brought back to reality actually disproves the theory before it has gotten off the ground. I think you need to accept that you didn't like what was presented to you, because nothing presented to you suggests that none of it really happened. Edited October 2, 2013 by The OP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Badonde Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Todd was the worst cast character in the show by a mile. Wasnt believable in the slightest and didnt look the part either. It was a forced effort to make him seem crazy, killing a young boy etc. He just came across to me as far too nice a guy for half of the shit he got up to 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real Saints Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Todd was the worst cast character in the show by a mile. Wasnt believable in the slightest and didnt look the part either. It was a forced effort to make him seem crazy, killing a young boy etc. He just came across to me as far too nice a guy for half of the shit he got up to That was what I found so fascinating about the character. I think Jesse Plemons did a fantastic job. If you were to read his lines directly from the script, I'm sure they would appear plain and understated. He really brought the character to life, and one of the many disappointments about the series ending for me is that I would have liked to see more of him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) I hate that sort of interpretation. The ending of Taxi Driver is the most prominent example I can think of where people do this. There is no foreshadowing that this might be a fantasy - indeed Jesse's fantasy which is brought back to reality actually disproves the theory before it has gotten off the ground. I think you need to accept that you didn't like what was presented to you, because nothing presented to you suggests that none of it really happened. the fact that walter was able to walk around without being noticed or arrested to the extent that he hung around after telling skylar to phone the DEA was extremely strange and a dream would also account for the way his plans worked out perfectly against all odds. there was also a lot of odd dialouge in the episode: the pizza/thai conversation, the part with marie constantly getting the neighbours name mixed up and the bit with jack asking him if he was wearing a wig. there was also a strange filter in the scene with skylar and the fact that everything apart from the quick look at jesse was from walter's perspective. Edited October 2, 2013 by T_S_A_R 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 also shedding the watch could be a sign that we are outside reality. gilligan said that it was a continuity thing but he also said they fluked the reflection of skylar in the microwave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) Errr...no. The 'Jesse is fucked' thing was worth discussion. This is just dumb. Edited October 2, 2013 by The OP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Errr...no. The 'Jesse is fucked' thing was worth discussion. This is just dumb. so why do you think they made such a big deal out of walt putting the watch on the phonebox? how do you explain walt being in new hampshire during the winter but apparently back in new mexico for his birthday in september? or walt getting shot in the gut by an M60 but not noticing straight away? this theory justifies the crazy serendipity the finale relies on and deals with the morality problems as walter dies alone and unredeemed and jesse is stuck as a meth slave. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.C Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 so why do you think they made such a big deal out of walt putting the watch on the phonebox? how do you explain walt being in new hampshire during the winter but apparently back in new mexico for his birthday in september? or walt getting shot in the gut by an M60 but not noticing straight away? this theory justifies the crazy serendipity the finale relies on and deals with the morality problems as walter dies alone and unredeemed and jesse is stuck as a meth slave. We have no concept of where in New Hampshire he was if in the mountain areas then that may just be the weather as it almost borders Canada. In terms of that god knows how long it took him to journey between the 2 citys with teh distance he had to travel With him being shot you can see him react when he has Jessie down, in terms of why he isn't showing any pain id say a combo of shock and his meds that he is on which are prob heavy duty pain killers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) I'm torn between maintaining my 'Er...no' stance and entertaining this - it's a bit like a 9/11 truther really - "I have a handful of minimal inconsistencies therefore this completely illogical theory is correct!!" However Vince Gilligan actually addressed the watch point on Talking Bad. He stated that they noticed he wasn't wearing it in the flashforward, removed it for continuity, and then came up with an 'artsy fartsy' reason that it was symbolic of Walt distancing himself from Jesse. Why on earth removing a watch is indicative of a dream is beyond me. There is also the obvious point re your 2nd pointless question that people travel and Walt had plans to set in motion. The extreme snowiness of New Hampshire was probably to emphasise the stark difference between the snows and the desert he has just left, and to show how hellish his solitary, cut-off existence must be. The gut shot was a narrative choice to make his fate have more impact, and this method is pretty commonly used in fiction without indicating a dream. It could be explained away by shock, adrenaline, medication or anything like that. The obvious point about the dream is that it clearly wasn't indicated in the narrative, and would be the most pathetic copout imaginable. The entire episode revolved around a logical continuation of the previous episode, focused on multiple characters and everything that happened subscribed to real world scenarios and physics. Really, I suspect you're trolling. Your reasons are so incredibly pathetic I suspect it must be a joke. It's along the lines of saying 'IMO Nineteen Eighty Four was really just a dream of Winston Smith's, who was an accountant living in 1948. This is obvious because he drinks gin when in real-life men don't drink gin'. It's really that dumb. I think that explains my position and I'll chose to ignore any 'Yeah but how do you explain...' nonsense to come because I've really just wasted 5mins of my life responding already. You might think I'm being melodramatic, but your suggestion is really that dumb. Although Walter White was obviously a ghost. Edited October 2, 2013 by The OP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoss Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 As you've said previously, you believe Jesse to be 'fucked' when he finally escapes. Some people will agree with you. And others, like myself, believe differently. The point here is not whether or not Jesse is fucked from any objective point of view, it's the fact that he seems at last to have found some peace of mind and a more positive mental approach. (It reminded me a bit of Yossarian's break for freedom at the end of Catch-22 - sure, that ws doomed from any objective standpoint as well, but the fact that it was attempted as a result of finally having got his head together was liberating for him and uplifting for the reader.) I think that a lot of the complaints about Breaking Bad that have been detailed are regarding plot contrivances as opposed to plot holes. There's a subtle difference. Plot holes (for me at least, as it appears to be loosely defined) describes making the impossible occur to further the plot. Plot contrivances is more about the extremely improbable. Yup, good point, and there are many great books / plays / films that rely on some pretty unlikely contrivances. Quite a number of Dickens' books hinge on some extraordinarily improbable coincidences, for example. i actually quite like the interpretation that everything from the keys falling from the sun visor is a fantasy. I'm kind of sympathetic to that theory as well, and since there's no right or wrong here it's a perfectly legitimate standpoint to hold, and arguably a much better ending. There are some problems with it though - it would require Walt to have knowledge of things that he apparently doesn't know about while he's still in New Hampshire (eg Jesse's incarceration). I think it's also fairly clear from what's been said in the media that it's not what the programme makers intended, they mean us to take the episode at face value. ("There is nothing ambiguous about the ending", said Gilligan the other week, among other things.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I'm torn between maintaining my 'Er...no' stance and entertaining this - it's a bit like a 9/11 truther really - "I have a handful of minimal inconsistencies therefore this completely illogical theory is correct!!" However Vince Gilligan actually addressed the watch point on Talking Bad. He stated that they noticed he wasn't wearing it in the flashforward, removed it for continuity, and then came up with an 'artsy fartsy' reason that it was symbolic of Walt distancing himself from Jesse. Why on earth removing a watch is indicative of a dream is beyond me. There is also the obvious point re your 2nd pointless question that people travel and Walt had plans to set in motion. The extreme snowiness of New Hampshire was probably to emphasise the stark difference between the snows and the desert he has just left, and to show how hellish his solitary, cut-off existence must be. The gut shot was a narrative choice to make his fate have more impact, and this method is pretty commonly used in fiction without indicating a dream. It could be explained away by shock, adrenaline, medication or anything like that. The obvious point about the dream is that it clearly wasn't indicated in the narrative, and would be the most pathetic copout imaginable. The entire episode revolved around a logical continuation of the previous episode, focused on multiple characters and everything that happened subscribed to real world scenarios and physics. Really, I suspect you're trolling. Your reasons are so incredibly pathetic I suspect it must be a joke. It's along the lines of saying 'IMO Nineteen Eighty Four was really just a dream of Winston Smith's, who was an accountant living in 1948. This is obvious because he drinks gin when in real-life men don't drink gin'. It's really that dumb. I think that explains my position and I'll chose to ignore any 'Yeah but how do you explain...' nonsense to come because I've really just wasted 5mins of my life responding already. You might think I'm being melodramatic, but your suggestion is really that dumb. Although Walter White was obviously a ghost. I'm torn between maintaining my 'Er...no' stance and entertaining this - it's a bit like a 9/11 truther really - "I have a handful of minimal inconsistencies therefore this completely illogical theory is correct!!" However Vince Gilligan actually addressed the watch point on Talking Bad. He stated that they noticed he wasn't wearing it in the flashforward, removed it for continuity, and then came up with an 'artsy fartsy' reason that it was symbolic of Walt distancing himself from Jesse. Why on earth removing a watch is indicative of a dream is beyond me. There is also the obvious point re your 2nd pointless question that people travel and Walt had plans to set in motion. The extreme snowiness of New Hampshire was probably to emphasise the stark difference between the snows and the desert he has just left, and to show how hellish his solitary, cut-off existence must be. The gut shot was a narrative choice to make his fate have more impact, and this method is pretty commonly used in fiction without indicating a dream. It could be explained away by shock, adrenaline, medication or anything like that. The obvious point about the dream is that it clearly wasn't indicated in the narrative, and would be the most pathetic copout imaginable. The entire episode revolved around a logical continuation of the previous episode, focused on multiple characters and everything that happened subscribed to real world scenarios and physics. Really, I suspect you're trolling. Your reasons are so incredibly pathetic I suspect it must be a joke. It's along the lines of saying 'IMO Nineteen Eighty Four was really just a dream of Winston Smith's, who was an accountant living in 1948. This is obvious because he drinks gin when in real-life men don't drink gin'. It's really that dumb. I think that explains my position and I'll chose to ignore any 'Yeah but how do you explain...' nonsense to come because I've really just wasted 5mins of my life responding already. You might think I'm being melodramatic, but your suggestion is really that dumb. Although Walter White was obviously a ghost. i drink gin quite often. i'm presenting evidence as to why i think it is a dream. the strange time shift from midwinter to early september is a huge reason as is the multitude of unrealistic things which happen in the course of the episode. another wee textual things is walter being useless with the screw driver in the car but later on in the episode he DIYs an efficient killing machine. i think that every scene being from walter's perspective other than one which begins in jesse's dream could also be taken as evidence that we are seeing the fates of our two protaginists and also their fantasies. watches represent time and reality and can be said to represent a tie to the world. taking off the watch and abandoning indicates we are no longer in the real world. i know what gilligan said but he is hardly going to lay it all out, david chase certainly didn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The OP Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 (edited) i think that every scene being from walter's perspective other than one which begins in jesse's dream could also be taken as evidence that we are seeing the fates of our two protaginists and also their fantasies.Nail on head. You see Jesse's fantasy for a moment, and it is clearly signposted. The narrative is then returned to the real world - the same one featured in the 80-odd episodes prior to the finale (despite obvious dream indicators like the lesbian from friends discussing food with her husband and Marie not knowing the exact specifics of the layout of White family's street). Edited October 2, 2013 by The OP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T_S_A_R Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 at 9 minutes in walt is looking at photos. at the back right of the table there is a frame with two photos, the top one is a dog is the bottom photo a younger walter? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bert Raccoon Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 Todd was the worst cast character in the show by a mile. Wasnt believable in the slightest and didnt look the part either. It was a forced effort to make him seem crazy, killing a young boy etc. He just came across to me as far too nice a guy for half of the shit he got up to I would completely disagree. On another forum I was reading he was described as "The polite sociopath" which is a pretty good description. Jesse Plemons played the role fantastically, he can be very polite and nice at times but when it comes down to it he can murder children and mothers in cold blood without even breaking a sweat. The way the actor portrayed Todd's creepiness was spot on in every way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixtyten Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 I've just watched the last episode for a second time, and maybe it was a bit of a crowd-pleaser and perhaps slightly safe compared to some of the jaw-droppers we've had leading up to this. However imo it was still a worthy conclusion to the best TV show I've ever seen. I can't imagine how tough that must've been for the writers but they made a good job of it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BONACCORD1 Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 By jaw dropping do you mean Gus last scene lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinkinFighter Posted October 2, 2013 Share Posted October 2, 2013 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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