Breaking Bad

[Yoss]

That worked well (despite considerable fan backlash) in the Sopranos, but I'm not sure it would have really have fit in Breaking Bad. Besides, it's too close to the end of season 1 (or was it 2?). I think almost full closure worked really well.

Jesse shooting Gale? Third series, that was. First series ended with Tuco in the scrapyard - which was never intended as a series-ender but for the writers' strike - and the second series with the plane crash.

[Twinkle]

How about a series finale of Walt hitting the deck as the bullets flew from the car, jesse sussing that something was up so did the same and them both getting up armed with a gun pointing at each other as the police lights approach in the background before the screen goes black? I liked the true ending but cant help feeling that one of the two characters shouldve ended the other one

[banana]

Jesse shooting Gale? Third series, that was.

That was only 2 years ago O_O f**k me...

[Loki]

You can't really. People make this mistake in English classes all over the country. You can interpret it in any way as long as you can back it up. His 'evidence' is pretty ridiculous.

His frame by frame analysis of the episode is weird as well.

Although Walt was obviously a ghost. This explains why he could walk into cafes in Albequerque without being noticed, and why he was impervious to bullets. Really at the end he just came to peace with his place in the spiritual world and the 'bullet wound' was symbolic of that - makes more sense than that he was dreaming about lying unconscious/dead with the police sweeping in.

Yes I agree with your first point. However this is not an English class and TSAR isn't writing a critique to be assessed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the fact that myself nor yourself see no conclusive evidence to point to the theory being true, TSAR is still free to interpret the ending in any way he wants. You don't need to evidence to believe something.

I also find it amusing that his theory is based on the Psychological work of Sigmund Freud. A body of work which is largely discredited because of "plot holes" in his theories.

[T_S_A_R]

Yes I agree with your first point. However this is not an English class and TSAR isn't writing a critique to be assessed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the fact that myself nor yourself see no conclusive evidence to point to the theory being true, TSAR is still free to interpret the ending in any way he wants. You don't need to evidence to believe something.

I also find it amusing that his theory is based on the Psychological work of Sigmund Freud. A body of work which is largely discredited because of "plot holes" in his theories.

i'm interested in why you believe that freud has been discredited?

[Yoss]

That was only 2 years ago O_O f**k me...

Three, I think. The final series has been strung out over two years. (For me it was only a few months ago, when someone lent me the box set.)

i'm interested in why you believe that freud has been discredited?

For being a sack of shit, mostly. Luckily I don't think your dream theory in any way relies on it.

[Loki]

i'm interested in why you believe that freud has been discredited?

Mainly for the simple fact it has. Most of his theories are outdated and don't apply to society today and arguably never did.

Did you lose sexual attraction to your mother because of fear of castration by your father as a two year old? Do you think women are envious of the fact you have a penis? The Oedipus stage of a boys sexual development and female penis envy are absolutely laughable.

He was also a heavy cocaine user, and quite often prescribed cocaine to fix any mental illness.

[The OP]

Yes I agree with your first point. However this is not an English class and TSAR isn't writing a critique to be assessed. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and the fact that myself nor yourself see no conclusive evidence to point to the theory being true, TSAR is still free to interpret the ending in any way he wants. You don't need to evidence to believe something.

How very banal. Am I allowed to say I disagree and that I consider the theory to be baseless and ridiculous, and even posit reasons why he has chosen to interpret the ending in such a way, or are all opinions sacrosanct outwith English classes?

Apparently Freud never said 'Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar'. Shame.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

There are a few more things that either support the Walt's fantasy ending or show up some pretty poor storytelling.

When Walt initially goes to New Hampshire he has to ride inside a propane tank across the country because he needs to hide from the authorities. On his drive back he drives the stolen car all the way from New Hampshire to the diner just outside Albuquerque without issue. That is a logical inconsistency in the show.

The massive time jump is the thing that tips the balance for me. Walt arrives in New Hampshire and is told his propane will last him the winter. At least a couple of months later it is still snowing. Yet he arrives back on his birthday, that means it took him around 6 months to travel across the country. Again it seems unlikely.

I had a closer look at the photos T_S_A_R was posting about, the one Walter picks up appears to be him and Gretchen and the other one looks like him below the picture of a dog. It seems very odd to place these photos in the scene.

Other things like locating Skinny Pete and Badger seem off as it is unlikely Walt has their contact details on hand.

The way things add up make it a better show if the last episode occurs in Walt's head (and briefly in Jesse's). The only thing that (slightly) dissuades me is Skyler's description of being threatened but Walt obviously felt Lydia was a threat to his family since he killed her before he had visited Skyler.

[T_S_A_R]

Again, it's 9/11 truther stuff. There's a photograph of a guy who resembles Walt to a minimal degree in the background of some scene, so let's ignore the theory requiring us to believe that Jesse is fantasising within Walt's subconscious from a place Walt does not know he is located - fantasising about something he had only revealed was his ambition in Narcotics Anonymous. Errr whit? Or are they sharing a subconscious or something because Gilligan has watched too much Inception?

Does Walt's subconscious also extend to phone calls between Skyler and Marie when Walt is not present, which allude to stuff that had been shown in flashforwards in previous episodes of this series? Does his wish-fulfillment not extend to reconciliation with his son? Why the f**k does he cough in a dream? Why does the dream continue when he is lying either unconscious or dead, as the police move in? Why does he want Jesse to break free from his control and tell him to shoot himself, when that is Jesse's own character development?

Its a case of people reading far too much into stuff because they were dissatisfied with the finale, or because they wish to believe themselves above the sheeple who haven't come up with a ridiculous, wafer-thin theory involving freeze frames and focusing on inconsequential events or things which have already been explained to them (such as the watch).

Although Walt is obviously an Alien and he transported himself, Badger and the other one into the Schwarz compound in his spaceship. It's the only explanation that fits.

Edit, just to add finally that if you think 'The ending was all a dream' is a good storytelling device I wouldn't look down on people who enjoy 'magnets bitch!' too much.

it's nothing like 9/11. there is only one true version of what happened in 9/11 the same as any real event. this episode of a tv show is a text constructed by multiple people and it is quite possible that it has been purposely created with multiple meanings.

the photo hasn't just randomly appeared in the show. someone or some people have chosen to include in shot a photo frame with a picture of a dog above a picture of a man who looks like bryan cranston. it's an odd choice and i think it's natural to speculate that there is a particular reason behind the choice.

it's also interesting that the schwarz's are listening to part of the opera faust. the similarity is that just as faust is about to die extremely unhappily mephistopheles appears and offers him the chance to live and guarantees to help him achieve his heart's desire. the way that everything works perfectly for walt and he can move about freely is similarly supernatural.

i would argue that the scene with jesse in the woodshop is jess's own displacement fantasy and the scene with him in the meth lab reality. the scene with walt in the car up to the close up of his eyes is reality and the rest of the episode is his displacement fantasy.

on the topic of the phone call with marie all the dialoouge which occurs that walt isn't directly privy to is extremely odd.

the schwarzs talk about pizza and thai food and then start havering nonsense about 1921, the sweet smell of success and islamabad. when walt comes in the conversation becomes more lucid and she says "two years it's been too long" which is the exact amount of time since the first episode and walt's cancer diagnosis. the bit about elliot's knife not being big enough seems like a manifestion of walt's sexual rivalry with elliot over gretchen.

marie has a strange fascination with the neighbour's name and then says it's a 'million to one chance' walt can get to skylar which of course he has already done. i'd say that is walt's ego massaging itself that he can beat impossible odds.

with todd and lydia again they are having an extremely banal conversation about lydia's blouse then lydia massages walt's ego by asking him how he found them. basically "tell me how smart you are". the conversation with jack is also extremely banal and compliments walt on his hair.

i don't believe that they chose to shoot an elaborate scene where walt makes a big deal of getting rid of the watch for no reason and i also don't believe that the reflection in the microwave happened by chance considering the complex lighting of that scene.

the ending all being a dream seems cliche but the idea of creating two different endings is extremely interesting. an ending which pleases the action junkies who like things to be linear whilst also being open to a more complex reading which addresses some of the moral problems the series posed is extremely original and a good way to deal with the problem of the vocal audience that tv shows almost uniquely face. the people who make the show are obviously intelligent, creative people and i think it's more likely they did something ambitious than a cliched, contrived straight forward redemption story. i can believe that walter white wouldn't acknowledge the suffering he has caused but i don't think gilligan would.

Edited October 3, 2013 by T_S_A_R

[T_S_A_R]

Mainly for the simple fact it has. Most of his theories are outdated and don't apply to society today and arguably never did.

Did you lose sexual attraction to your mother because of fear of castration by your father as a two year old? Do you think women are envious of the fact you have a penis? The Oedipus stage of a boys sexual development and female penis envy are absolutely laughable.

He was also a heavy cocaine user, and quite often prescribed cocaine to fix any mental illness.

what about the concept of the unconscious mind, psychoanalysis and the concept of the id, ego and super ego. all of these ideas are still prominent in western culture.

[Loki]

My post there didn't make the point that I was trying to make, and was indeed a poor post. Simply you'll never convert a believer no matter how much evidence is presented. If he chooses to interpret that way, I don't think he will change his mind irrespective of how much clear and concise evidence you or other posters present.

[T_S_A_R]

The massive time jump is the thing that tips the balance for me. Walt arrives in New Hampshire and is told his propane will last him the winter. At least a couple of months later it is still snowing. Yet he arrives back on his birthday, that means it took him around 6 months to travel across the country. Again it seems unlikely.

in ozymandias skylar says that holly is 18 months old. she was born at christmas 2009 which means ozymandias took place roughly in july 2011.

robert foster said it would take a while to get walter set up and when they arrive in new hampshire there is snow which means they got there in septemer at the earliest. robert foster made at least two monthly visits which moves us up to november/december.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

in ozymandias skylar says that holly is 18 months old. she was born at christmas 2009 which means ozymandias took place roughly in july 2011.

robert foster said it would take a while to get walter set up and when they arrive in new hampshire there is snow which means they got there in septemer at the earliest. robert foster made at least two monthly visits which moves us up to november/december.

Basically there is no way that the story makes sense for it to be Walt's 52nd birthday in a reality based timeline. It should be months after Walt's birthday due to the snow. Even October is early for snow in New Hampshire, then as you say you need to add at least 2 months to account for visits.

Although in the season 5 flash forward he does show the waitress a presumably fake New Hampshire ID but his dates for Walter Jr. birthday confirm that the finale takes place in september 2011.

This is a major oversight and one that seems unlikely to have slipped the mind of the writers.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

on the topic of the phone call with marie all the dialoouge which occurs that walt isn't directly privy to is extremely odd.

marie has a strange fascination with the neighbour's name and then says it's a 'million to one chance' walt can get to skylar which of course he has already done. i'd say that is walt's ego massaging itself that he can beat impossible odds.

Marie compares him to the Unabomber which Walter would find very complimentary. Ted Kazinsky was a genius although I think this comparison has been part of the show since season 2 with the drawing of Walter White resembling that of the famous unabomber drawing.

The other thing with the Faust connection is that the female character is called Gretchen and the name is synonymous with that work

[banana]

TSAR in 'completely ignore anything that ruins the fantasy conspiracy, continue with truther approach' shocker.

Troll detected, have fun

[Brian Badonde]

Why are all you idiots constantly going on about what TSAR has to say??? Give it a rest! Hes putting out the bait and every one of you are biting! Ignore the guy FFS

[Brian Badonde]

I would completely disagree. On another forum I was reading he was described as "The polite sociopath" which is a pretty good description. Jesse Plemons played the role fantastically, he can be very polite and nice at times but when it comes down to it he can murder children and mothers in cold blood without even breaking a sweat. The way the actor portrayed Todd's creepiness was spot on in every way.

Yes murdering children, very easy to put that in a script. You can make anything possible in a tv show. None of his personality traits showed how he was a sociopath. Far too easy to just use actions to make someone seem crazy. If i was to believe he was a sociopath i would need to have seen his past life, before he met walt

[T_S_A_R]

TSAR in 'completely ignore anything that ruins the fantasy conspiracy, continue with truther approach' shocker.

Troll detected, have fun

no one has offered anything to support the realist interpretation which hasn't been countered.

Explain to me how it is possible that walter returns to new mexico on september the 6th.

[Yoss]

The September birthdate is, as far as I'm aware, based on a single snapshot of their divorce 'papers, which I imagine were just filled at the time without any great thought being given to the implications or the time of year in which previous episodes had been filmed or set. There are a few such throaway anachronisms which I've seen pointed out elsewhere - for example the posters put up when Walter went missing (second series, I think) were dated April. These events followed quite soon after the pilot, and indeed his cancer diagnosis at that point is referred to as being "more than a month ago". (Seven months is, technically, more than a month, but it would be an odd way to state it.)

Given such conflicting titbits, and the lack of any suggestion that the producers intended us to set any store by any of them, to pick one of them out and build an entire theory out of it is pretty tenuous.