Sons' sorrow

[The Moonster]

3 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

People don't give a f**k. It's as simple as that. What we need to focus on is getting youngsters through the door and holding on to the hardcore support. There's no short term fix, it's all about convincing youngsters to watch us instead of Rangers and Celtic. It's easier said than done.

The current group of youngsters calling themselves 'ultras' is a good example, if we can hold on to say half of them we'll be doing well. No doubt the majority will eventually chuck it but we should try our best to keep them coming back.

Why don't they care though? Our average attendances this year are lower than more than half the division, Montrose getting nearly 200 more through the door each week. Stranraer, Brechin and Stenny are the only 3 teams we are bettering for attendances. Why are we so hard to come and watch? I get that we're shite but even when we were good in this division we could only muster about 50-60 more fans each week (which is still below the average of around 800 for this division).

It looks like the new youngsters are enjoying themselves but we really need more than a group of 20 youngsters coming every week. The club can put on discounted tickets, discounted hospitality, pre-match entertainment and still no tangible increase in attendances, it's just the folk that already go who take advantage of these things.  I don't know how we get folk down there and I don't know how we keep them there - we have a friendly wee club down there that puts plenty on for fans but we see absolutely no reaction.  2,000 c***s will show up for a cup final and tell you how great it was despite defeat and not even 2% of them have returned to support us through the league campaign.  That was a cup final which had some excellent promotion from the club too, and we see no advantages.

[Old Scrotum]

"Whistle while you work

Aitken is a twerp

He's half barmy

So's his Army

Whistle while you work"

(Frank "Sons Fan" Pike)

[BallochSonsFan]

We're not really in a unique position. Plenty of clubs play in towns where there is high unemployment or where there's a low wage economy. Plenty of towns see the same kind of exodus to Ibrox and Parkhead that Dumbarton does. I'm not sure what the root cause is but it's clear that too many in the local community don't value having a club on their doorstep. Between Dumbarton, Helensburgh and the Rosneath peninsula, the Vale and (say it quietly) Old Kilpatrick and Clydebank, we should have a reasonable catchment area.  As a club I think we're actually quite switched on with social media and we get coverage in both the Lennox and the Reporter. Not sure if the Advertiser covers us?

Are we just cursed to be in an area with a strongly polarised Rangers/Celtic split and where folk in general don't value their local team? I made the switch from OF fan to Dumbarton fan a decade ago and haven't regretted it but I know I'm in the minority (shameless plug  - there's a piece in When Saturday Comes this month about exactly that switch).

What is it about Dumbarton that the local population seem indifferent towards us and generally wouldn't care less if we disappeared tomorrow?

[lorenzo71]

15 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

In terms of a Season Horribilis, this one is shaping up beautifully to be the best since 1988/89, or to be more precise The Georgian Period.

Pat Carney's diving header debut own goal at home to Arbroath, Geordie Elliott turning up at Inverness half-jaked on the Saturday morning...Peter Wharton being announced as 'T.Rialist' at Hampden, etc.,. You really had to be there.

88/89 had its moments though.Cup run thru the Highlands and holding out vs the 'tic for 80 mins at Parkheid.An on fire Stuart Mciver and a 1 -0 midweek win over eventual champions Albion Rovers in the most postponed fixture ever(18 TIMES I BELIEVE).Add to that  colin spence's winning goal vs Queens Park on the tele highlights i think that season is beating this by a fair bit.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

6 minutes ago, BallochSonsFan said:

We're not really in a unique position. Plenty of clubs play in towns where there is high unemployment or where there's a low wage economy. Plenty of towns see the same kind of exodus to Ibrox and Parkhead that Dumbarton does. I'm not sure what the root cause is but it's clear that too many in the local community don't value having a club on their doorstep. Between Dumbarton, Helensburgh and the Rosneath peninsula, the Vale and (say it quietly) Old Kilpatrick and Clydebank, we should have a reasonable catchment area.  As a club I think we're actually quite switched on with social media and we get coverage in both the Lennox and the Reporter. Not sure if the Advertiser covers us?

Are we just cursed to be in an area with a strongly polarised Rangers/Celtic split and where folk in general don't value their local team? I made the switch from OF fan to Dumbarton fan a decade ago and haven't regretted it but I know I'm in the minority (shameless plug  - there's a piece in When Saturday Comes this month about exactly that switch).

What is it about Dumbarton that the local population seem indifferent towards us and generally wouldn't care less if we disappeared tomorrow?

There is an element of local indifference, but the truth is that professional football in Scotland, especially at the lower end, is slowly dying.  People's interests are widespread nowadays and football has dropped way down the batting order, to the extent that attendance at a match has become almost the preserve of anoraks like us.

We also now live in an era of instant media and instant gratification, and due to the smorgasbord of televised football kids growing up relate more to Barca, Man U, whoever, rather than develop an interest in the very downmarket offerings of their local clubs.  And what chance have these clubs got when STV is currently breathlessly plugging La Liga and Serie A fixtures on our regional station ?

 Palates have become very dulled indeed and the money involved in watching live football has to be balanced against the perceived greed of both players and their agents - the Old Firm aren't aiding Dumbarton, and never did, but it is the Bosman Ruling that is likely to kill them.

[Homer Sandoval]

1 hour ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

In terms of the hardcore support - season tickets sales are down because our season tickets don't represent value for money vs walk up prices unfortunately. When I worked it out at the start of the season it really wasn't worth my while buying one because I knew I'd miss more than 2 or 3 games over the season. A season ticket would have been doing me out of money. I'd love to be able to blast over 200 quid on a season ticket, even if it wasn't great value for me personally, but I'm simply not in a position to do that due to other committments. I know of a fair whack of folk who are in the same boat. It's all well and good saying it helps the club etc but not everyone can afford a lump sum like that unless it represents a proper saving for them over the course of a season.

3

Your point here interests me, for a variety of reasons. What doe any club do here then, in your opinion? Lower the season ticket price and raise the walk-in tariff? Do you think Dumbarton would get 100 or so extra people buying a ticket if it was cheaper? That figure is random to illustrate a point about volume. I would imagine that for Dumbarton as it is for others, season ticket income is vital to setting budgets and income targets. 

[lorenzo71]

2 hours ago, The Moonster said:

What I find frustrating/annoying/strange is that it only takes say 6 weeks of bad form for people to decide to stay at home instead of coming to a game, yet 6 years of success in Scotland's second tier as the best part time team in the country and we still weren't able to build our support - if anything our support dwindled towards the end.  We were a bawhair away from entering the play-offs to the Premiership, we went that far in the Scottish Cup that we had to submit an application in case we ended up in Europe, yet we could still barely muster 600 bodies through the home end. If a poor team causes folk to stay away until things get better, why doesn't a good team bring in more fans which allows us to build on that success?

I can remember a time not so very long go , when you could buy Sons tops in the likes of Intersport  in Glasgow, Stirling and Falkirk.Its almost unthinkable now,Such is the financial gap in football and the promotion of the top clubs in the world that supporting a club like ours has LOSER written all over it if not LOOSE CANNON.The inflation in football is truly horrendous and its stretching  small clubs like ours to the limit.I can see a future where the ONLY senior clubs in Scotland will be Full Time ones.Its very sad.Young folk not sold on the ugly sisters in Dumbarton probably are more likely to follow Arsenal and the like instead ofus

[Kilbowie Benches]

The lower leagues (part timers) should be playing more local football to generate interest.

Regionalising the bottom two divisions would be a start.Who goes to watch Annan Athletic when they play at Elgin? Who in Elgin wants to watch them playing Annan Athletic?

 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Your point here interests me, for a variety of reasons. What doe any club do here then, in your opinion? Lower the season ticket price and raise the walk-in tariff? Do you think Dumbarton would get 100 or so extra people buying a ticket if it was cheaper? That figure is random to illustrate a point about volume. I would imagine that for Dumbarton as it is for others, season ticket income is vital to setting budgets and income targets. 

The club has to make it worthwhile. If you bought a Dumbarton season this season it would have cost you £250, if you paid into every match individually it would cost you £288. If you buy a season ticket that's a saving of just over 2 matches (2.375 to be precise). If you're asking someone to part with a lump sum you need to make it worth their while, spreading the cost over the course of the season will suit far more people than paying a lump sum will.

At a guess, I'll probably miss 4 or 5 home games so there's no chance I'd be buying one. I'd love to be able to, but I can't justify it when I have other things to save/pay for.

If it was me I'd be lowering the season ticket price but I have no idea about club finances, budget etc so I can't possibly comment on how clubs deal with it. All I can say is that unless the lump sum represents a significant saving then the uptake will always be poor.

This isn't a dig at the club FWIW, simply an observation.

[Nowhereman]

16 hours ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

In terms of a Season Horribilis, this one is shaping up beautifully to be the best since 1988/89, or to be more precise The Georgian Period.

Pat Carney's diving header debut own goal at home to Arbroath, Geordie Elliott turning up at Inverness half-jaked on the Saturday morning...Peter Wharton being announced as 'T.Rialist' at Hampden, etc.,. You really had to be there.

And the worst strip that we ever had. Looked as if it had faded in the wash

[Homer Sandoval]

5 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

The club has to make it worthwhile. If you bought a Dumbarton season this season it would have cost you £250, if you paid into every match individually it would cost you £288. If you buy a season ticket that's a saving of just over 2 matches (2.375 to be precise). If you're asking someone to part with a lump sum you need to make it worth their while, spreading the cost over the course of the season will suit far more people than paying a lump sum will.

At a guess, I'll probably miss 4 or 5 home games so there's no chance I'd be buying one. I'd love to be able to, but I can't justify it when I have other things to save/pay for.

If it was me I'd be lowering the season ticket price but I have no idea about club finances, budget etc so I can't possibly comment on how clubs deal with it. All I can say is that unless the lump sum represents a significant saving then the uptake will always be poor.

This isn't a dig at the club FWIW, simply an observation.

Fair viewpoint to have. Can't fault your logic. In general, though, I'm not sure fans think on the basis of saving lots of money when they buy a season ticket. Certainly, there has to be a benefit and it's a fine line for clubs who try to balance books. Do you think that, in Dumbarton's case, that if the season ticket price was cheaper for this season and the walk-up price dearer, more tickets would have been sold?  

[Scosha]

How was Armour on Saturday? 

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

Fair viewpoint to have. Can't fault your logic. In general, though, I'm not sure fans think on the basis of saving lots of money when they buy a season ticket. Certainly, there has to be a benefit and it's a fine line for clubs who try to balance books. Do you think that, in Dumbarton's case, that if the season ticket price was cheaper for this season and the walk-up price dearer, more tickets would have been sold?  

I believe so, yes. I can't speak for others but I know of 6 people who were regular season ticket holders who didn't renew this season. The main reason was the lack of saving.

To be fair though, these people are all around my age and are at the stage of life where babies are arriving, weddings are being saved for and houses are being purchased. I'm not sure if this sort of thing would have as much of an impact on people in their 40s or 50s who will generally be more settled.

[The Moonster]

23 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

The lower leagues (part timers) should be playing more local football to generate interest.

Regionalising the bottom two divisions would be a start.Who goes to watch Annan Athletic when they play at Elgin? Who in Elgin wants to watch them playing Annan Athletic?

 

Regionalising the leagues will hardly have swathes returning to watch us or anyone else. If we were in a regional league we'd be playing the likes Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Clyde and Queens Park. I'm not convinced we'd see a huge increase in those attendances compared to us playing the likes of Elgin or Annan (that and Annan is a terrific day out).

18 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

 If you're asking someone to part with a lump sum you need to make it worth their while, spreading the cost over the course of the season will suit far more people than paying a lump sum will.

The club have looked at that FWIW, but it's not really feasible for a club like ours. Having financing agreements in place can be difficult. The club would also prefer to have all of the cash in the bank at the start of the season, makes life a whole lot easier when you end up being presented with months like we had in October with virtually no income. On that note, if Raith beat Dunfermline this weekend in the Scottish Cup then our game at home with them on the 9th of February would be postponed - that would mean no home games between 26th January (Montrose) and 2nd March (Arbroath). It also means that the biggest away support we have visiting us (Raith) would lose numbers as I imagine that match would be rescheduled midweek (which also means loss of hospitality). That's a bit of a nightmare scenario for a club running on fumes.

[Bring Back Paddy Flannery]

The club have looked at that FWIW, but it's not really feasible for a club like ours. Having financing agreements in place can be difficult. The club would also prefer to have all of the cash in the bank at the start of the season, makes life a whole lot easier when you end up being presented with months like we had in October with virtually no income. On that note, if Raith beat Dunfermline this weekend in the Scottish Cup then our game at home with them on the 9th of February would be postponed - that would mean no home games between 26th January (Montrose) and 2nd March (Arbroath). It also means that the biggest away support we have visiting us (Raith) would lose numbers as I imagine that match would be rescheduled midweek (which also means loss of hospitality). That's a bit of a nightmare scenario for a club running on fumes.

That's the point I'm trying to make, we don't even need to set something like that up... the walk up prices are pretty much equivalent to spreading the cost of a season ticket, give or take a few quid!

[Kilbowie Benches]

22 minutes ago, The Moonster said:

Regionalising the leagues will hardly have swathes returning to watch us or anyone else. If we were in a regional league we'd be playing the likes Albion Rovers, Airdrie, Clyde and Queens Park. I'm not convinced we'd see a huge increase in those attendances compared to us playing the likes of Elgin or Annan (that and Annan is a terrific day out).

The club have looked at that FWIW, but it's not really feasible for a club like ours. Having financing agreements in place can be difficult. The club would also prefer to have all of the cash in the bank at the start of the season, makes life a whole lot easier when you end up being presented with months like we had in October with virtually no income. On that note, if Raith beat Dunfermline this weekend in the Scottish Cup then our game at home with them on the 9th of February would be postponed - that would mean no home games between 26th January (Montrose) and 2nd March (Arbroath). It also means that the biggest away support we have visiting us (Raith) would lose numbers as I imagine that match would be rescheduled midweek (which also means loss of hospitality). That's a bit of a nightmare scenario for a club running on fumes.

Surely there’s more chance of  fans attending away matches at QP,Airdrie,Clyde etc rather than going to Elgin,Montrose,Forfar etc?

[Thommo90]

1 hour ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

The club has to make it worthwhile. If you bought a Dumbarton season this season it would have cost you £250, if you paid into every match individually it would cost you £288. If you buy a season ticket that's a saving of just over 2 matches (2.375 to be precise). If you're asking someone to part with a lump sum you need to make it worth their while, spreading the cost over the course of the season will suit far more people than paying a lump sum will.

At a guess, I'll probably miss 4 or 5 home games so there's no chance I'd be buying one. I'd love to be able to, but I can't justify it when I have other things to save/pay for.

If it was me I'd be lowering the season ticket price but I have no idea about club finances, budget etc so I can't possibly comment on how clubs deal with it. All I can say is that unless the lump sum represents a significant saving then the uptake will always be poor.

This isn't a dig at the club FWIW, simply an observation.

Exact same boat as myself.  Couldn't justify it.

Last year it cost me £200 for a ST but would have cost me £364 to pay in to every game.  Because of how good that offer was, this year was always going to end up with poor sales.

[The Moonster]

52 minutes ago, Bring Back Paddy Flannery said:

That's the point I'm trying to make, we don't even need to set something like that up... the walk up prices are pretty much equivalent to spreading the cost of a season ticket, give or take a few quid!
 

Sorry aye, I accept the point about the saving, I just thought it was worth mentioning that the club have looked at offering finance to fans previously in order to give them access to the cheaper prices and with affordable instalments.

39 minutes ago, Kilbowie Benches said:

Surely there’s more chance of  fans attending away matches at QP,Airdrie,Clyde etc rather than going to Elgin,Montrose,Forfar etc?

Are QP really bringing any more than Forfar?  I don't think so. Airdrie usually bring a decent enough support but I'm sure they'll take a decent number to Angus and the likes too.  Travel isn't the issue for fans IMO, most clubs run supporters buses which make away games fairly easily affordable for anyone who wants to travel.

[Homer Sandoval]

49 minutes ago, Thommo90 said:

Exact same boat as myself.  Couldn't justify it.

Last year it cost me £200 for a ST but would have cost me £364 to pay in to every game.  Because of how good that offer was, this year was always going to end up with poor sales.

£200 - great price indeed. Looking at the DFC website, the price you paid was for the discounted scheme they released in March 2017, I think? Not really comparing eggs with eggs there.

[Thommo90]

1 minute ago, Homer Sandoval said:

£200 - great price indeed. Looking at the DFC website, the price you paid was for the discounted scheme they released in March 2017, I think? Not really comparing eggs with eggs there.

Aye, you are right actually.  Still got me in for the following season though.