Independence - how would you vote?

[xbl]

If you can provide evidence to the contrary, I will happily read it.

Let me guess - "A senior source close to HB said he did"?

I think your evidence demanding days are well and truly over now. In the last couple of weeks you've demanded evidence that the Unionist parties claimed that the SNP couldn't have a referendum without permission and now about Europe, and both times, you've simply ignored the evidence when it has been presented. So I think its probably about time you started to "engage with the substance" before you demand any more "evidence". You're just another Tryfield and DeeGas now.

[AberdeenBud]

I haven't offered any opinions on the matter, other than to agree with Murray's only factual statement - that the border will be negotiated post Independence, between the new entity (Scotland) and the existing entity.

If I was to stick a tenner on it (assuming the fantasy land of a won referendum) I'd go for the line remaining as it is now domestically. It would be interesting to find out - I like maritime border disputes.

Beware the "this man knows the score" fallacy. David Scheffer is, the Nats told us with great glee, an "eminent" international law expert. How did that go for Nicola again, after he was bitchslapped by the actual experts a fortnight later?

Only factual statement? I think you need to improve your reading skills, you're starting to come across as slightly myopic here.

You dismissed Mr Murrays's view on the Scottish Maritime Border as irrelevant. As an world renowned expert in the field, I would argue his views are extremely relevant.

Not sure why you feel need to mention Nicola Sturgeon.

[H_B]

I think your evidence demanding days are well and truly over now. In the last couple of weeks you've demanded evidence that the Unionist parties claimed that the SNP couldn't have a referendum without permission and now about Europe, and both times, you've simply ignored the evidence when it has been presented. So I think its probably about time you started to "engage with the substance" before you demand any more "evidence". You're just another Tryfield and DeeGas now.

Very amusing from the "all of the debt, none off the assets" debacle poster. Your credibility is at an all time low.

[H_B]

Only factual statement? I think you need to improve your reading skills, you're starting to come across as slightly myopic here.

You dismissed Mr Murrays's view on the Scottish Maritime Border as irrelevant. As an world renowned expert in the field, I would argue his views are extremely relevant.

Not sure why you feel need to mention Nicola Sturgeon.

What were the other factual statements? His views on what the border "should" be are completely irrelevant.

The border doesn't exist. It will be a new border to be drawn between an existing sovereign entity and a new sovereing entity. The domestic border currently in place may be used as a starting point by either negotiating team, or it may not.

It all depends on what other factors are in play as to what each negotiating team is willing to trade on. Discussions about debt and assets are for example, above the pay grade for negotiators on the maritime teams.

[xbl]

Very amusing from the "all of the debt, none off the assets" debacle poster. Your credibility is at an all time low.

My credibility is soaring. In recent months, as the Unionists and Apologists have attacked and attacked me personally, my credibility has only been bolstered. Add to that my finely attuned political radar and my run of dismantling the cabals, and I think the neutrals will agree that my credibility is significantly higher than yours.

[H_B]

Not sure why you feel need to mention Nicola Sturgeon.

Because it is ver relevant.

Nicola Sturgeon lied to Scots when she told voters that Scotland would inherit EU membership on the same terms as the UK currently enjoys post-Independence. This is a lie.

She tried to use an "expert in the field" to back up this lie.

It backfired spectacularly as it turned out this "expert" didn't know his arse from his elbow and was quickly shut back into his box by a succession of international law experts.

Nats on here and WoS frantically stumbled over themselves to cheerlead this "very important contribution to the debate" only to look like utter fools when it soon emerged that it was the ramblings of a moron, which were chortled at by real experts a few days later.

Note that I am not putting Murray in the same "box of shame" that Scheffer enjoys. Murray may well prove to be correct in his opinion, as he is advancing a plausible theory, unlike Scheffer, who advanced a turd on a rope.

I will repeat again, the border, once negotiated, may well become more advantageous to NewScotland than the existing one is to domestic Scotland. That will depend not only on maritime precedent, but on other negotiations proceeding at the same time.

[H_B]

I think the neutrals will agree that my credibility is significantly higher than yours.

I doubt that very much.

Care to make a referendum result prediction?

[Mr Rational]

1) Correct.

2) A second referendum being on what basis?

1- I'm always right. Once I was misinformed, but that was his fault not mine

2- I'm curious to see how spiteful/magnanimous the UK government would actually be.

[H_B]

No, sorry, I meant what would the question be for the second ref?

[xbl]

I doubt that very much.

Care to make a referendum result prediction?

As I've said multiple times, I'm more than happy with how I come across. I have a fairly high credibility rating with the silent majority I think.

And yes, I think we'll win. Polls will hit 40% this year, and when that happens it will just be a case of how much we win by.

[H_B]

And yes, I think we'll win. Polls will hit 40% this year, and when that happens it will just be a case of how much we win by.

Good stuff...

[DeeGas]

Scotland continues to play the 'victim',bad England/Westminster,create divide etc etc....

England is a selfish and messed up as it's always has been.

Tis a shame alright.

Tough world.

Scotland alone will still face massive problems.

Together within the UK all of us will have a better chance.

[invergowrie arab]

Scotland continues to play the 'victim',bad England/Westminster,create divide etc etc....

England is a selfish and messed up as it's always has been.

Tis a shame alright.

Tough world.

Scotland alone will still face massive problems.

Together within the UK all of us will have a better chance.

DeeGas you come across as being a working class lad with a healthy disdain for the Tories. Just imagine what a fillip a shining beacon of progressive social democracy right on your doorstep will be to the anti-tory bloc in England.

[DeeGas]

Nah, just can't be arsed getting involved in the bitch-fest (amusing bitch-fest, but bitch-fest none the less) that this thread is at times, it's like watching a load of puppies in a pet shop, some are fighting, some are chasing their own tails & some are just sniffing arses.

But I'll entertain you this once,

I'm firmly in the Yes camp, I won't bore you with the details of my coming to this decision, some of it will be down to my upbringing and some will be down to my own educated decision, so I'll just cut straight to it with 2 basic points:

1. When are "Better Together" going to give some reasons why we're "better together" rather than " worser apart", their scaremongering tactics remind me a lot of the "social unrest" and "Armageddon" threats we all heard in the summertime...

2. If Scotland as a nation really is as dependant a nation on any uk governments handouts benefits/pensions etc then why are the old Etonian mob so desperate to keep us in the Union? I'd have thought they'd be glad to wash their hands of such a massive drain on their budget.

Don't blame you only being a reader (usually) of this thread RoversMad (I too am Rovers mad by the way,that is Britstol).

300 years of Union,a Union far from perfect,but it worked and sometimes very well.

Our peoples are intergrated through marriage and the fact Britain is a country and people.

I can't stand the Eaton mob and the unfairness of our society.I hope to see more places in England take their own lead,rather than doing exactly what some toffee nosed git from Westminster says.Etc.These Eaton people will let Scotland go,no two ways about that.

Not all the English and Welsh are lahdeedah thugs and thieves.Millions are the same as Scottish people.

There is for millons a UK family to consider and a 'British identity' (the people group more so than the geography for those who want to split hairs).

There is a suggestion of the Scots running out on millions of Welsh/English who are in the same boat,just because the going has got tough.

If Scotland goes it goes and that will be that,but I hope Scots can remember their British Family and place within it and vote for the Union.

[DeeGas]

DeeGas you come across as being a working class lad with a healthy disdain for the Tories. Just imagine what a fillip a shining beacon of progressive social democracy right on your doorstep will be to the anti-tory bloc in England.

There really is a big question mark over that particular future picture invergowrie,but for the sake of discussion i'll go with it.

If Independent Scotland happened,got a good deal with the oil,the Unionists accepted Scotlands exit,Germany welcomed Scotland to their Empire,a Labour Government old style so to speak created a welfare state etc,everyone had a reasonably paid job,ran a reasonable 2nd hand car,had enough cash for a fortnight in Majorca,decent helath care,decent education and could even afford a season ticket at their local fc (local,nice thought ay!) etc then I think it would quite likely stir many English into demanding change in England.How many would demand this I don't know,there are doubts.

Thatcher basically 'bought off' millions by letting them buy their own home/'castle'.This produced a nation (not all) of people obsessed with 'bettering themselves' through material gain.These people lost much if not all sense of 'es spirit de corps' and social awareness.They cared about interest rates,blacks moving into 'their' area and possibly lowering the price of their house.Many bought a house for profit,the building had nothing to do with people,neighbours,community or home.Just £.

Thatcher bought millions off,payed em to shut up.

We do have a generation coming through who are encouraged to stay at home for years rather than attempt to rent a flat,morgages are now out of the question for millions.Maybe this generation may grow up looking at a happy and prosperous Scotland and wanting the same for themselves and England.

The whole thing for me has been complicated.I have said to fellow Englishmen that you can see why many Scots want out of the UK.

Thing is I do have a strong sense of 'Britain',as in a British Familiy of people.Millions share this feeling,this identity.

There is part of me that is angered/unimpressed by Scots wanting to 'run out' on fellow Brits who are also struggling.

I still want us to stick together,a border between North and South Britain would be ugly,insulting and a shame on everyone of us in my opinion.

One thing I've noticed is that for some Scottish nationalists,this 'British Family thing' is difficult or near impossible to understand.

It really exists though and I suppose even if the SNP/Yes campaign win many political arguments (they are still to achieve this) they still have to justify to millions the break up of the British family,which I suspect for many Scots will simply be too much.

[Mr Rational]

[quote name="DeeGas" post="7492173" timestamp="137276779

One thing I've noticed is that for some Scottish nationalists,this 'British Family thing' is difficult or near impossible to understand.

It really exists though and I suppose even if the SNP/Yes campaign win many political arguments (they are still to achieve this) they still have to justify to millions the break up of the British family,which I suspect for many scots will simply be too much.

Evidence please. Not by posters on here either thank you.

[Colkitto]

There really is a big question mark over that particular future picture invergowrie,but for the sake of discussion i'll go with it.

If Independent Scotland happened,got a good deal with the oil,the Unionists accepted Scotlands exit,Germany welcomed Scotland to their Empire,a Labour Government old style so to speak created a welfare state etc,everyone had a hob reasonably paid,ran a reasonable 2nd hand car,had a fortnight in Majorca,decent helath care,decent education and could even afford a season ticket at their local fc (local,nice thought ay!) etc then I think it would quite likely stir many English into demanding change in England.How many would demand this I don't know,there are doubts.

Thatcher basically 'bought off' millions by letting them buy their own home/'castle'.This produced a nation (not all) of people obsessed with 'bettering themselves' through material gain.These people lost much if not all sense of 'es spirit de corps' and social awareness.They cared about interest rates,blacks moving into 'their' area and possibly lowering the price of their house.Many bought a house for profit,the building had nothing to do with people,neighbours,community or home.Just £.

Thatcher bought millions off,payed em to shut up.

We do have a generation coming through who are encouraged to stay at home for years rather than attempt to rent a flat,morgages are now out of the question for millions.Maybe this generation may grow up looking at a happy and prosperous Scotland and wanting the same for themselves and England.

The whole thing for me has been complicated.I have said to fellow Englishmen that you can see why many Scots want out of the UK.

Thing is I do have a strong sense of 'Britain',as in a British Familiy of people.Millions share this feeling,this identity.

There is part of me that is angered/unimpressed by Scots wanting to 'run out' on fellow Brits who are also struggling.

I still want us to stick together,a border between North and South Britain would be ugly,insulting and a shame on everyone of us in my opinion.

One thing I've noticed is that for some Scottish nationalists,this 'British Family thing' is difficult or near impossible to understand.

It really exists though and I suppose even if the SNP/Yes campaign win many political arguments (they are still to achieve this) they still have to justify to millions the break up of the British family,which I suspect for many scots will simply be too much.

That will be a democratic decision by the people who reside in Scotland. No justification needed.

[DeeGas]

That will be a democratic decision by the people who reside in Scotland. No justification needed.

The business side of it will be done by those who live in Scotland with the referendum,true of course.

The emotional side may not be quite so easy and straight forward.

[DeeGas]

Evidence please. Not by posters on here either thank you.

Why not posters on here,i mean they are Scottish nationalists.

What do you want,film of me talking to people,recorded conversation!?

I'm going by some of the posts on this thread.Some have expressed a view of not feeling the "British Family" thing at all.Some have swept it under the carpet as if it is nothing to be taken seriously.

Search this thread if you want,but I think most know that these kind of posts have been made.

[~~~]

"British family"