Why England will win Euro 2008 - BBC 2003

[AMMjag]

Rooney probably. A few others on the bench.

I don't claim to be too clued up on France's tactics, but it seems they regularly play with a single striker. In which case I'd always have Benzema playing before Rooney. In starting 11 terms the only suspect position is that of Yohann Cabaye's, but I don't see a single England player that would offer a significant improvement on him.

[Seymour Skinner]

England topped France's group though. Although they did draw with each other - all I seem to remember is that it was a fucking dire game.

My only memory of that game was me being the only Scotsman in a bar full of Englishmen on holiday wildly celebrating the France goal, rounded off with a customary 'get it up ye'. Scenes.

[LinkinFighter]

I don't claim to be too clued up on France's tactics, but it seems they regularly play with a single striker. In which case I'd always have Benzema playing before Rooney. In starting 11 terms the only suspect position is that of Yohann Cabaye's, but I don't see a single England player that would offer a significant improvement on him.

Rooney slotting in behind Benzema playing the number 10 role.

[BerwickMad]

I don't claim to be too clued up on France's tactics, but it seems they regularly play with a single striker. In which case I'd always have Benzema playing before Rooney. In starting 11 terms the only suspect position is that of Yohann Cabaye's, but I don't see a single England player that would offer a significant improvement on him.

Basically, you haven't got a clue what you're slavering on about. You're just trying to find any angle to put down England, yeah? Glad we cleared that up.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

My only memory of that game was me being the only Scotsman in a bar full of Englishmen on holiday wildly celebrating the France goal, rounded off with a customary 'get it up ye'. Scenes.

It was 0-0. How many had you had?

Edit: Sh*t, sorry, of course it was 1-1, I'm an idiot

[AMMjag]

Basically, you haven't got a clue what you're slavering on about. You're just trying to find any angle to put down England, yeah? Glad we cleared that up.

Nope, we've already established that, factually, England's historical achievements are absolutely eclipsed by those of France - and thus, France are the bigger, better, more relevant team on the world stage: something you don't appear to be taking very well at all.

[BerwickMad]

As said before, that's a totally different point. Nobody is arguing against that.

[Swampy]

BerwickMad taking last night's result particularly well.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

As said before, that's a totally different point. Nobody is arguing against that.

Ah but it's much easier to argue the point if you ignore what people are saying and introduce irrelevant facts.

I'm going to argue that Greece are better than Argentina because they won the Euros in 2004, and Argentina haven't done anything in years. The fact that it's clearly not the case is neither here nor there.

[Supras]

But don't worry, this can only get better for me, you do seem like the kind of poster who will dig and dig so please continue

I knew it would be good but I wasn't expecting this good!

My argument has never been about the last 15 years, it's about the recent past where France have been dire. Don't let what I've actually said stop you arguing though.

They were only in the Spain's group because their consistently poor performances meant they weren't top seeds. They also didn't get seeded for the play-offs. And we didn't lose to Ukraine, while France did.

I'm not surpised that Chile beat our reserves, and I'm also not surprised that Germany are significantly better than us.

The same France that has scraped through play-offs to reach the last 2 World Cups, that finished below England in the groups at the last Euros, that finished bottom of the group in the last World Cup, that finished bottom of their group at the Euros before that, and have managed 1 win in their last 3 tournaments put together.

That was just Supras shifting the goalposts. I wouldn't even try to argue that we've achieved more than them in the last 15 years. My point has always been that in recent years they've been absolutely awful, and demonstrably worse than England.

It was 0-0. How many had you had?

Edit: Sh*t, sorry, of course it was 1-1, I'm an idiot

^^^ personal highlight

Ah but it's much easier to argue the point if you ignore what people are saying and introduce irrelevant facts.

I'm going to argue that Greece are better than Argentina because they won the Euros in 2004, and Argentina haven't done anything in years. The fact that it's clearly not the case is neither here nor there.

As critical "Carl Cort" and perma seethe BerwickMad have been lets look at exactly what evidence they have put forward for England being better than France.

1) Reaching one round more in the group stages of WC 2010 - even though they went on to get utterly humiliated by Germany.

2) Finishing ahead of them in the group in Euro 2012 - despite drawing with them, and again reaching the same stage where France were beaten by eventual winners.

3) And (saving the best till last) they, uhm, got beaten by Ukraine and we didn't . Or maybe they think they wouldn't finish below Spain.

Now if you think this somehow trumps France's vastly superior record over 5 years, over 8 years and over 15 years then good for you, you are a bitter fantasist.

But best of all you posted this:

In anticipation of France losing on page 5. And, rather than taking your humiliation like a man you have decided to squirm and make it oh so much enjoyable for everyone else. Thanks.

[Distant Doonhamer]

It was 0-0. How many had you had?

Edit: Sh*t, sorry, of course it was 1-1, I'm an idiot

Superb

[BerwickMad]

BerwickMad taking last night's result particularly well.

I know. Watched Portugal instead.

[BerwickMad]

I knew it would be good but I wasn't expecting this good!

^^^ personal highlight

As critical "Carl Cort" and perma seethe BerwickMad have been lets look at exactly what evidence they have put forward for England being better than France.

1) Reaching one round more in the group stages of WC 2010 - even though they went on to get utterly humiliated by Germany.

2) Finishing ahead of them in the group in Euro 2012 - despite drawing with them, and again reaching the same stage where France were beaten by eventual winners.

3) And (saving the best till last) they, uhm, got beaten by Ukraine and we didn't . Or maybe they think they wouldn't finish below Spain.

Now if you think this somehow trumps France's vastly superior record over 5 years, over 8 years and over 15 years then good for you, you are a bitter fantasist.

But best of all you posted this:

In anticipation of France losing on page 5. And, rather than taking your humiliation like a man you have decided to squirm and make it oh so much enjoyable for everyone else. Thanks.

I thought you had stopped when you admitted to being ashamed of yourself and your homophobic comments of the past.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

Superb

To be fair, the game was so appalling I completely forgot that anyone actually scored.

I at least admit when I'm wrong, unlike Supras.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

Now if you think this somehow trumps France's vastly superior record over 5 years,

Go on then, explain how France have a vastly superior record over the last 5 years...

[Supras]

I thought you had stopped when you admitted to being ashamed of yourself and your homophobic comments of the past.

You mean that comment you never produced?

Yeah, my moral zeitgeist and that of the world does progress after 5 years, I'd expect nothing less.

To be fair, the game was so appalling I completely forgot that anyone actually scored.

I at least admit when I'm wrong, unlike Supras.

Do you admit you were wrong when you pre emptively celebrated France going out of the World Cup playoffs to Ukraine?

Still, I'm more than a little amused that, in the space of two posts, I'm criticised for admitting I was wrong, then criticised for never admitting I was wrong. It's as if this double act forgot only one of them was meant to be the idiot.

Go on then, explain how France have a vastly superior record over the last 5 years...

Qualified for four tournaments compared to three for England.

Simple. Still, your complete surrender with regards to every other point speaks volumes. You have been soundly beaten on this thread, I don't expect you to pretend otherwise for much longer.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

Do you admit you were wrong when you pre emptively celebrated France going out of the World Cup playoffs to Ukraine?

Yup, hands up, I got that one wrong. They surprised me by actually being competent.

Simple. Still, your complete surrender with regards to every other point speaks volumes. You have been soundly beaten on this thread, I don't expect you to pretend otherwise for much longer.

I'm addressing the one point which is actually relevant to what I've been saying, and which is actually the crux of my argument.

Qualified for four tournaments compared to three for England.

Right, lets actually look at those 4 tournaments.

Euro 2008: Fair play, they actually qualified while England didn't. When they actually got there though, they managed zero wins and a solitary goal, and humiliatingly finished bottom of a group that included Romania

World Cup 2010: Needed extra-time and a hand-ball to overcome mighty Ireland in a play-off to qualify (England qualified automatically). Once they got there they repeated the trick of the Euros, registering zero wins, one goal, and actually went on strike on their way to finishing bottom of the group, again. They were one of the worst teams at the entire tournament, and performed so disgracefully that the head of the FFF felt the need to resign, and several of the players received suspensions. England went through from the groups unbeaten, before being thumped by Germany in the last 16.

Euro 2012: Hallelujah, France actually win a match at a tournament! Unfortunately, they also finish well behind England in the group, before being comfortably dispatched by Spain in the quarter-finals. England also go out in the quarters on penalties to Italy.

World Cup 2014: Scrape past Ukraine in a play-off after losing the first leg 2-0. England qualify automatically.

Just for the sake of completeness, the records of France and England since 2008:

France- W: 38

D: 19

L: 20

Win percentage: 49%

England- W: 41

D: 16

L: 10

Win percentage: 61%

If you still think that France's record over the last 5 years is 'vastly superior' then you're delusional.

[TheScarf]

Nah, this guy is at it. There's no chance England are better than France.

[lanky_ffc]

England had an easier task given that they were top seeds in their group. Obviously France being seeded 2nd was entirely their own fault. But using the fact they went into playoffs as point-scoring is clutching at straws IMO.

Swap the two sides and you'd have England in the playoffs as there's no chance they would top Spain. I'm also fairly confident you'd have France topping a group containing Poland, Montenegro and Ukraine.

[Carl Cort's Hamstring]

England had an easier task given that they were top seeds in their group. Obviously France being seeded 2nd was entirely their own fault. But using the fact they went into playoffs as point-scoring is clutching at straws IMO.

Swap the two sides and you'd have England in the playoffs as there's no chance they would top Spain. I'm also fairly confident you'd have France topping a group containing Poland, Montenegro and Ukraine.

The bit in bold is the main point. Had they not repeatedly bombed out of tournaments, or went on extended poor runs (just this year they had a 5 match sequence where they didn't even score a goal) they wouldn't end up in groups with Spain.

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing that England have achieved more internationally overall than France (because we haven't), or even that we have better individuals (I don't think we do, although the number of Newcastle players in France's team says something about where they are right now). I'm just showing why Supras' very specific assertion that France have a "vastly superior record over 5 years" is complete nonsense, and that he doesn't know what he's on about. Unless his definition of vast superiority is having a poorer win rate, losing twice as many matches, winning fewer games in tournaments, getting knocked out earlier in tournaments, and finishing below England when they're actually drawn together in a group. I guess to be fair, it might be, his grasp of logic doesn't seem the most secure.