Confidemus Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 The idea that poverty and inequality is the no position and wealth and equality is yes is jam tomorrow at its most optimistic if not downright lying. I'm afraid the current state, the one that No voters wish to continue is one if massive inequality, child poverty, and the poor and vulnerable of this country being kicked for the mistakes of the rich. If you want that to continue, by all means vote No. You won't find a Yes voter anywhere promising jam tomorrow. What you will find though is a real hunger for change and a chance to change things. A fair Scotland where decisions for our country are taken in our country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Are you calling the situation I described an example of reckless behaviour? BTW the No side is in power now. The current situation is that we now have poverty and inequality. The No side are campaigning for the status quo. Ergo the No side are essentially campaigning for what we currently have which is……..? As for your point about encouraging reckless behaviour? I'll settle for a discussion about how as a country we want to help people who get into that situation. At the moment they are ignored. If you calm down and read what is there it makes things a lot easier. I said it would encourage reckless behaviour; I didn't say it was as result of it. So should mortgages be underwritten ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I'm afraid the current state, the one that No voters wish to continue is one if massive inequality, child poverty, and the poor and vulnerable of this country being kicked for the mistakes of the rich. If you want that to continue, by all means vote No. You won't find a Yes voter anywhere promising jam tomorrow. What you will find though is a real hunger for change and a chance to change things. A fair Scotland where decisions for our country are taken in our country. By your logic you'll be wanting to vote to leave the EU too? This democratic deficit pish that the nationalists push is dishonest in the extreme. There is a democratic deficit not because of the location of our politicians but because most politicians are completely out of touch with the voters. How is poverty going to be eradicated in iScotland if the country's leaders think it's okay to cosy up to thieving bankers and wankers like Trump? There isn't an alternative government in waiting because it will be the same people making the same crap decisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 By your logic you'll be wanting to vote to leave the EU too? This democratic deficit pish that the nationalists push is dishonest in the extreme. There is a democratic deficit not because of the location of our politicians but because most politicians are completely out of touch with the voters. How is poverty going to be eradicated in iScotland if the country's leaders think it's okay to cosy up to thieving bankers and wankers like Trump? There isn't an alternative government in waiting because it will be the same people making the same crap decisions. So what, we should do nothing about foodbanks? Welfare cuts? Child poverty? Just suck it up and accept the position as it is? Well no, I want a country where we TRY to change things. And that's why I'll be voting Yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 People tend to feel that doing something is always better than doing nothing; its a bit of an instinct but its rationality is highly questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 So what, we should do nothing about foodbanks? Welfare cuts? Child poverty? Just suck it up and accept the position as it is? Well no, I want a country where we TRY to change things. And that's why I'll be voting Yes. I repeat - where is this alternative government in waiting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Nothing that Yes voters claim will happen in an Scotland can't also be undertaken in the UK. No serious political entity in Scotland can deliver a left wing agenda. Assuming for a second that this is a good thing. Certainly nor Scottish Labour or 'increase inequality in society ' SNP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Nothing that Yes voters claim will happen in an Scotland can't also be undertaken in the UK. So why isn't it happening? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Good news for yes as Dave "i wont get involved its for the scottish people blah blah balh but im shit scared of a debate with big eck" is to come north on a series of day trips to argue the case for the union You know fine well that as soon as Cameron comes up north he'll be accused of overstepping. It's an entirely reasonable accusation. The case for remaining in the union has to be made by Scots opposed to separatism. As of now, they've made a horrendous job of that. You have to think Cameron will be a better debater than Alistair Darling, so in all reality, Cameron not coming up to debate Salmond works in Salmond's favour. Incidentally, Salmond's qualities as a leader do not lie in his debating skills so much as they do as, apparently, steering the ship. I've always wondered what would happen if an SNP MSP came out as anti-independence. It won't happen, because Salmond keeps such a tight leash on his party. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 So why isn't it happening? Because not enough people want it. We don't vote for am radical political agenda. Hence the Socialists and the Greens are small beer and we vote centre right like the SNP and Labour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Can't afford? Who is talking about people buying houses they can't afford? Did I mention that? Did anyone? Yes. You did. When you said that people living in nice houses couldn't afford the ancillary costs like council tax, which pay for their water, sewage and bin collections on top of the local areas schools, hospitals and social care provision. If you can't afford to take on the ancillary costs of owning your own home then it's your fault if you end up in negative equity for taking that risk. I'm talking about someone with a £40k job who has a mortgage of almost ANY size. Let's say he ignores all his overtime to be safe. He plays safe on the multiples of his income he borrows against and borrows £100k which is WELL under the maximum reasonable mortgage you should borrow (which is 3 times your annual salary). It's also well under the national average mortgage. His repayments will be about £600 per month. Very easily affordable on £40k per year. At this point the guy literally couldn't be taking fewer risks as far as borrowing is concerned. He then loses his job because the factory shuts down. His skill set is not in demand in say Fife and so he can't get a comparable income. He's perhaps 48 years old so he's struggling to get interviews anyway but let's leave that to one side. His house is up for sale that can take two years, he's not getting any interest form buyers (because there aren't any) and the house is only worth say £90k because of what happened in 2008. He's collecting some job seekers allowance and housing benefit if he's luck but they are going to remove all of that because he's been offered a job paying £1000 per month. His outgoings however are £600 for mortgage, possibly £150 for council tax, £100 for gas and electricity if he's careful, £150 for travelling or petrol getting to work 50 miles away totalling £1000 and he's not bought food yet. The man is in deep fucking shit. He'll almost certainly lose his house and STILL owe £10k plus costs to repay the rest. He comes to you as his Lib Dem MSP or MP and asks for help about what the hell to do. Your answer is to tell him "Fucking Tough". Seriously? You must be on the wind up here. Yes. I tell him fucking tough. He went 8 years earning twice the average national household income, failed to take out payment protection insurance (like, seriously, this is what PPI is actually for) and failed to set some money aside when he was comfortably spending less than he earned. If he has to take a small hit of £10k on the sale of his house that is just his problem: we can't say that on the one hand the state should allow people to make speculative profit, but on the other never speculative loss, on owning property. The man you speak of will, I'm afraid, just have to bite the bullet and sell, and seek alternative accommodation on the rental market like the overwhelming majority of people on the minimum wage. He'll still, in certain circumstances, be entitled to certain in work benefits to supplement his income, but when other people are literally on the streets or in a pokey council house struggling to pay the gas bill, I think it's unreasonable for the state to prioritise giving him and a lot of rich people in nice houses a real terms council tax cut. But hey, my disdain for middle class people in the top quartile of Scotland's earners complaining that their council tax is too high is evidence of me being a "Tory" in your world so oh well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I have to say it's truly through the looking glass territory when saying that direct taxes should fall on the wealthiest to reduce the burden on the poorest is now poor hating and Tory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 I have to say it's truly through the looking glass territory when saying that direct taxes should fall on the wealthiest to reduce the burden on the poorest is now poor hating and Tory Its a product of SNP can do no wrong methodology. If the SNP introduced a policy of 10 % tax for income over 50k there would be posters arguing this was progressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Even post a potential yes the SNP have sat down and questioned will we focus on tackling the poverty that is apparently a massive priority for yes campaigners ? or will we commit to spending an as yet unknown amount of 100s of millions in renationalising the royal mail as apart of political grand standing. Let them eat stamps ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Even post a potential yes the SNP have sat down and questioned will we focus on tackling the poverty that is apparently a massive priority for yes campaigners ? or will we commit to spending an as yet unknown amount of 100s of millions in renationalising the royal mail as apart of political grand standing. Let them eat stamps ? Governments can do more than one thing at a time. The privatisation of the Royal Mail is about geographical equality. Privatisation is a grubby little policy to make money for a small group of individuals as they squabble for the parts that are competitive. This leaves folk in the geographical extremes of the country fucked. That to me is not political grandstanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Nothing that Yes voters claim will happen in an Scotland can't also be undertaken in the UK. No serious political entity in Scotland can deliver a left wing agenda. Assuming for a second that this is a good thing. Certainly nor Scottish Labour or 'increase inequality in society ' SNP. Maybe this is the best argument for Yes. It hasn't happened, isn't happening and won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baxter Parp Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 People tend to feel that doing something is always better than doing nothing; its a bit of an instinct but its rationality is highly questionable. Aren't people resistant to change? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 Maybe this is the best argument for Yes. It hasn't happened, isn't happening and won't happen. I agree. Nor will it happen in a mythical new Scottish state. An iScotland will look almost exactly like Scotland is at the moment as part of the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confidemus Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 An iScotland will look almost exactly like Scotland is at the moment as part of the UK. I'd like detailed evidence of your claim please. Be very specific. Unless you are of course talking absolute shite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
invasion Posted May 3, 2014 Share Posted May 3, 2014 so bedraggled by the status quo of westminster that you think its impossible to change things in an independent Scotland ? Once we have rid of the ball and chain then Scotland can flourish it might take a decade or more to fix but at least it will be up to us instead of thinking a labour government will do something in westminster except stick their nose in the trough and forget all about their roots once again after promising so much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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