Scottish Independence - How will you vote? MkII

[Jamaldo]

So we have, on this poll, 80.56% for Yes, and 11.73% for No.

Surprised no unionists have come on to say this poll isn't representative of ra peepul yet.

[Shputnik]

Looks like only two Annan fans have voted myself and Annanbear.

I reckon this Annan/sevco fans hates oor flag.

[Confidemus]

85% YES

87% now.

The tide is turning.

[Owsley]

87% now.

The tide is turning.

I'm still seeing 80.62%?

[MarkoRaj]

Probably posted elsewhere, but well worth a watch:

Surely anyone with an ounce of intelligence won't accept the argument "give us a plan b in case Westminster won't give us a currency union" when they could just tell us straight whether they will accept a currency Union now and be done with it.

[pandarilla]

Surely anyone with an ounce of intelligence won't accept the argument "give us a plan b in case Westminster won't give us a currency union" when they could just tell us straight whether they will accept a currency Union now and be done with it.

That would mean they would have to admit that there will be a currency union and therefore take away their argument that Yes will lead to uncertainty and possible chaos. Another attempt to undermine independence and play the big bad fear card.

Unfortunately there are plenty of folk out there who lack the ounce of intelligence that you refer to.

[ayrmad]

Surely anyone with an ounce of intelligence won't accept the argument "give us a plan b in case Westminster won't give us a currency union" when they could just tell us straight whether they will accept a currency Union now and be done with it.

Just study how little eye contact he makes over the whole interview then do the same with Swinney, see who you believe the most.

Then watch Douglas Alexander and see obvious tells where he shakes his head while giving an affirmative etc.

[Father Ted]

It's a defo Yes from me. The Union is sinking under mismanagement from Westminster and London. Time to get out, I do feel sorry for our English friends they have no such escape. Would be interesting to see how many would come north and settle if we got independence? As the sh*t unfolds down south.

The wealth we must generate through oil, power, water, drinks and tourism to name a few will leave a huge dent in the Westminster treasury and they know it. The sh*t will really hit the fan down there, then we can sell our exports to them, rather than them just taking them and shafting us.

As for EU, currency, etc. Its all posturing from a incompetent Westminster government, who are very afraid. Money talks, common ground must be found, as it benefits all.

Ive never understood the need for Trident in current times, it's not as if it can sneak up on the Taliban and take them out. It's a vanity project and keeps government pals(defence/arms dealers) in the money. They dumped it up here, as it was deemed to dodgy for down south. I think that tells you all you need to know about Westminster.

If you are still doubting feel free to ponder the Banks; libor, big crash and ppi. Foodbanks. Billions of taxpayers money squandered. Are they still printing cash? Career politicians. Tax abuse by big business and the elite. Atos who make you feel guilty for being ill or disabled. I could go on, but im sure you get the idea.

[Confidemus]

It's a defo Yes from me. The Union is sinking under mismanagement from Westminster and London. Time to get out, I do feel sorry for our English friends they have no such escape. Would be interesting to see how many would come north and settle if we got independence? As the sh*t unfolds down south.

The wealth we must generate through oil, power, water, drinks and tourism to name a few will leave a huge dent in the Westminster treasury and they know it. The sh*t will really hit the fan down there, then we can sell our exports to them, rather than them just taking them and shafting us.

As for EU, currency, etc. Its all posturing from a incompetent Westminster government, who are very afraid. Money talks, common ground must be found, as it benefits all.

Ive never understood the need for Trident in current times, it's not as if it can sneak up on the Taliban and take them out. It's a vanity project and keeps government pals(defence/arms dealers) in the money. They dumped it up here, as it was deemed to dodgy for down south. I think that tells you all you need to know about Westminster.

If you are still doubting feel free to ponder the Banks; libor, big crash and ppi. Foodbanks. Billions of taxpayers money squandered. Are they still printing cash? Career politicians. Tax abuse by big business and the elite. Atos who make you feel guilty for being ill or disabled. I could go on, but im sure you get the idea.

Absolutely. I was discussing the referendum with the Mrs last night and I cannot see a single reason why anyone would vote no. I haven't heard a single positive thing coming from the BT's. not one single, solitary reason have they given why we are "better together".

A fairer society and one that is shot of Cameron and Gideon? For that alone, it's a gigantic yes for me.

[LongTimeLurker]

Frankie Boyle telling it as it is:

I seriously doubt Frankie Boyle would ever use a similar argument about how independence has worked for the RoI where his parents are from. Independence worked so well for them that they wound up moving to Glasgow. Alex Salmond used to wax lyrical about the RoI and Iceland as being part of his "arc of prosperity", now he has less to say on that subject. A lot of people who choose to highlight the economy when they find a way to make it fit their preferred argument are really guided by visceral level emotions based on "them and us" identity politics.

[pandarilla]

I seriously doubt Frankie Boyle would ever use a similar argument about how independence has worked for the RoI where his parents are from. Independence worked so well for them that they wound up moving to Glasgow. Alex Salmond used to wax lyrical about the RoI and Iceland as being part of his "arc of prosperity", now he has less to say on that subject. A lot of people who choose to highlight the economy when they find a way to make it fit their preferred argument are really guided by visceral level emotions based on "them and us" identity politics.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2013/02/20/icelands-stabilized-economy-is-a-surprising-success-story/

You need to keep up with the news...

[LinkinFighter]

I seriously doubt Frankie Boyle would ever use a similar argument about how independence has worked for the RoI where his parents are from. Independence worked so well for them that they wound up moving to Glasgow. Alex Salmond used to wax lyrical about the RoI and Iceland as being part of his "arc of prosperity", now he has less to say on that subject. A lot of people who choose to highlight the economy when they find a way to make it fit their preferred argument are really guided by visceral level emotions based on "them and us" identity politics.

^^^ An example of your average no voter, they have absolutely no knowledge of the facts. Embarrassing.

[LongTimeLurker]

OK, let's say we had been "free by 93" and Alex Salmond had implemented Laffer Curve economics, where would we be now? Doesn't it worry you a bit that your hero was so drastically off-base on that and didn't see that the Celtic Tiger he was always pointing to was based to a large extent on an unsustainable property speculation bubble? As for that other cretin Gordon Brown with his no more boom and bust, who also could have been ruling the roost don't get me started. Labour would have been no better. The time to do it was back in the 70s, so that policies similar to Norway's could be implemented to create a sovereign wealth fund based on oil and gas revenue as a nest egg for future generations, but it's too late in the day for that now given all the debt that has been accumulated by the UK in the intervening decades, and the shale gas revolution means that Scotland no longer necessarily has the edge over England on hydrocarbons.

[doulikefish]

OK, let's say we had been "free by 93" and Alex Salmond had implemented Laffer Curve economics, where would we be now? Doesn't it worry you a bit that your hero was so drastically off-base on that and didn't see that the Celtic Tiger he was always pointing to was based to a large extent on an unsustainable property speculation bubble? As for that other cretin Gordon Brown with his no more boom and bust, who also could have been ruling the roost don't get me started. Labour would have been no better. The time to do it was back in the 70s, so that policies similar to Norway's could be implemented to create a sovereign wealth fund based on oil and gas revenue as a nest egg for future generations, but it's too late in the day for that now given all the debt that has been accumulated by the UK in the intervening decades, and the shale gas revolution means that Scotland no longer necessarily has the edge over England on hydrocarbons.

What a load of defeatist waffle,Too wee Too poor straight out of the bitters handbook

Edited February 1, 2014 by doulikefish

[MarkoRaj]

A lot of people who choose to highlight the economy when they find a way to make it fit their preferred argument are really guided by visceral level emotions based on "them and us" identity politics.

What are you basing this on?

For me that doesn't do anything but highlight how low on fact and high on spurious drivel the No argumenty has been throughout

[LongTimeLurker]

What a load of defeatist waffle,Too wee Too poor straight out of the bitters handbook

Thanks for that insightful analysis. My original point was that most people who post on threads like this cherrypick anything economic that fits their preferred argument on a visceral identity politics level rather than genuinely looking at this pragmatically. Personally think that the SNP stopped making a convincing rational case for independence at around about the point where Jim Sillars lost the plot with his 90 minute patriots rant. Arguing for keeping the pound being a prime example of electoral expediency over making a genuine joined up intellectual case for independence. Understandable in a way given the way the euro has unfolded, but I suspect future generations will look back and question why if conditions weren't ripe for independence this historic opportunity wasn't used to push for devo max when there was a solid majority of public opinion behind it.

[ayrmad]

OK, let's say we had been "free by 93" and Alex Salmond had implemented Laffer Curve economics, where would we be now? Doesn't it worry you a bit that your hero was so drastically off-base on that and didn't see that the Celtic Tiger he was always pointing to was based to a large extent on an unsustainable property speculation bubble? As for that other cretin Gordon Brown with his no more boom and bust, who also could have been ruling the roost don't get me started. Labour would have been no better. The time to do it was back in the 70s, so that policies similar to Norway's could be implemented to create a sovereign wealth fund based on oil and gas revenue as a nest egg for future generations, but it's too late in the day for that now given all the debt that has been accumulated by the UK in the intervening decades, and the shale gas revolution means that Scotland no longer necessarily has the edge over England on hydrocarbons.

How much have we made from this shale gas revolution?

[I'm Brian]

OK, let's say we had been "free by 93" and Alex Salmond had implemented Laffer Curve economics, where would we be now? Doesn't it worry you a bit that your hero was so drastically off-base on that and didn't see that the Celtic Tiger he was always pointing to was based to a large extent on an unsustainable property speculation bubble? As for that other cretin Gordon Brown with his no more boom and bust, who also could have been ruling the roost don't get me started. Labour would have been no better. The time to do it was back in the 70s, so that policies similar to Norway's could be implemented to create a sovereign wealth fund based on oil and gas revenue as a nest egg for future generations, but it's too late in the day for that now given all the debt that has been accumulated by the UK in the intervening decades, and the shale gas revolution means that Scotland no longer necessarily has the edge over England on hydrocarbons.

Norway's oil fund was started in 1990. There is still time to start it in Scotland. Liberal estimates are that there is 60 years oil left. Generous estimates are 100 years. And of course lets not forget the untapped fields in the atlantic and firth of clyde. In 24 years Norway's fund has grown to the point where it is the envy of the world. It is there for it's people, not used to fund projects in a little corner of the country. You aren't really comparing like with like either. Shale gas is good for heating houses, but not really an awful lot else. Oil on the other hand has many uses. Also Scotland has shale gas too. I'm not putting shale gas down, if it can be extracted(remember there hasn't been a revolution, as you suggest in this country yet) then it will be a huge benefit and hopefully it will be utilised in a responsible manner. However I doubt this in the UK. It will go to line the pockets of CEO's as usual.

You also omit the renewable potential of Scotland, which is currently being utilised. This is a revolution, and will continue to be so.

Edited February 1, 2014 by I'm Brian

[doulikefish]

Thanks for that insightful analysis. My original point was that most people who post on threads like this cherrypick anything economic that fits their preferred argument on a visceral identity politics level rather than genuinely looking at this pragmatically. Personally think that the SNP stopped making a convincing rational case for independence at around about the point where Jim Sillars lost the plot with his 90 minute patriots rant. Arguing for keeping the pound being a prime example of electoral expediency over making a genuine joined up intellectual case for independence. Understandable in a way given the way the euro has unfolded, but I suspect future generations will look back and question why if conditions weren't ripe for independence this historic opportunity wasn't used to push for devo max when there was a solid majority of public opinion behind it

Jim Sillars is labour for indy,The Snp arent the be all and end all in the yes campaign

[LongTimeLurker]

How much have we made from this shale gas revolution?

Zilch. Westminster and Holyrood politicians have been too busy warbling on about wind power to implement it yet, but it is finally just over the horizon now. Energy costs for industry are way lower in the US than in the EU at the moment because the Americans have been able to open up previously uneconomic natural gas resources using a process called fracking. The prime location for doing something similar in the UK is near Blackpool, although there are also likely to be some good places to implement it across the central belt.