Latest Polls and Latest Odds

[Taza]

I've seen plenty evidence of vile behaviour from "cyberNats", I've seen some pretty bad some from the No side too but I've seen a lot more and a lot worse from the Yes side.

The reason it's a yes/no is because that is Salmonds preference - he doesn't really want devo-max, otherwise thats what we would be discussing now instead of yes/no. It suited him that the Edinburgh agreement defined the referendum to ask 1 question. Stop blaming WM and DC for everything - Salmond only wants independence, and at any cost.

WTF! Cover blown, knows fk all.

[ayrmad]

I've seen plenty evidence of vile behaviour from "cyberNats", I've seen some pretty bad some from the No side too but I've seen a lot more and a lot worse from the Yes side.

The reason it's a yes/no is because that is Salmonds preference - he doesn't really want devo-max, otherwise thats what we would be discussing now instead of yes/no. It suited him that the Edinburgh agreement defined the referendum to ask 1 question. Stop blaming WM and DC for everything - Salmond only wants independence, and at any cost.

Real name: Stevie Wonder

[Confidemus]

I've seen plenty evidence of vile behaviour from "cyberNats", I've seen some pretty bad some from the No side too but I've seen a lot more and a lot worse from the Yes side.

The reason it's a yes/no is because that is Salmonds preference - he doesn't really want devo-max, otherwise thats what we would be discussing now instead of yes/no. It suited him that the Edinburgh agreement defined the referendum to ask 1 question. Stop blaming WM and DC for everything - Salmond only wants independence, and at any cost.

You could not be any more blinkered if you tried. Are you Johann Lamont's son?

I wonder WHY you've seen more evidence of vile behaviour from the Yes side. I'm pretty sure I can guess.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were playing BetterTogether bingo - Vile cybernats and Alex Salmond in the one tear stained, mewling diatribe.

Do you buy the Daily Mail, perchance?

[RavyDavy]

...and you sir, will look back on all of this - in less than 2x years time - with great shame, regardless of the outcome on the 18th. Call this a slur if you will but I rarely have false visions.

I seriously doubt it...

[RedRob72]

How soon after independence would we be saddled with £1.5 Billion worth of debt and would our increase in Oil revenues be agreed and received before or after we took on our share of the national debt?

Serious question

[RavyDavy]

I'm sure those people who can't afford the electriciy to heat the food they get from foodbanks are delighted they're not in Tunisia or Vietnam.

That has to be one of the most spectaculalry misinformed pieces I've read in quite some time. It drips of MSM fed information and shows you haven't researched both sides fully, as you earlier asserted.

I simply don't have time to go through it all, but to pick one piece - the young lass from Glasgow? Firstly, there were no personal attacks on her. None.

There were accusations, rightly so, levelled at Better Together, for trying to pass her off as an "ordinary mum", when she was anything but. She's a political activist of some experience, to the extent whereby she was on Labour's policy formation group for 2015.

Why is this misinformed? Because you say so? Because it doesn't conform to your point of view, because it challenges your ideals? I'd particularly love to hear your views on the ship building point and how the manufacturing sector works - in fact I can barely contain myself.

There were plenty of vile messages left on the girls social media - being a Labour party member doesn't stop her being a "normal mum". nor does it give people the right to hide behind keyboards and type vile messages. Why do you need to defend it - I'd actually respect you a little if you condemned it.

[RavyDavy]

You could not be any more blinkered if you tried. Are you Johann Lamont's son?

I wonder WHY you've seen more evidence of vile behaviour from the Yes side. I'm pretty sure I can guess.

If I didn't know better I'd say you were playing BetterTogether bingo - Vile cybernats and Alex Salmond in the one tear stained, mewling diatribe.

Do you buy the Daily Mail, perchance?

Never met the woman and don't buy newspapers, other than the Fife Free Press occasionally. Who buys daily newspapers these days anyway?

Nothing tear stained about my posting, however yours are almost incomprehensible through the snotter-laden sniffles. You're actually quite funny in an ironic way - keep up the good work.

[renton]

I haven't complained about being stereotyped.... And I really don't think anything is more moronic than the personal attacks on JK Rowling or the young lass from Glasgow for publicly supporting a side. There are plenty more examples of this kind of behaviour. (1)

If I went to a bank to get a business loan with a plan as vague and baseless as the white paper, i'd be shown the door, so why would I vote for it? Running a country requires many of the same fundamentals as running a business - first and foremost you must balance the books and given the information available today. there is no evidence to suggest that an independent nation could execute the policies/ideals without running a huge deficit. What you are actually saying is that this a vote of faith - vote on the basis of an idea (a concept)? It's reckless and irresponsible in this context at best - you risk the living standards and livelihoods of an entire country. If you've got nothing to lose - go for it. Most people however, have plenty to lose and have more important priorities in life. (2)

You talk about Westminster like there is no Scottish representation in there at all.... Scottish voters have a better than average representation in Westminster in terms of MPs to number of constituents, and is better represented overall than English voters. The problem you have is that decisions are made there for UK as a whole, but that's why you have devolution. (3)

But break your argument down further - an independent Scottish parliament will be central belt-centric - it has to be because that is where the bulk of the populous is, so how about folks from the highlands and Islands, do things change for them? Do they really want all decisions relating to them being made in Edinburgh? Are they getting the government they want - central belt needs are completely different to H&I's. The SNP have progressively centralised power at Holyrood, preventing local authorities from doing what they need to do for their communities. What you're actually championing here is Federalism, which is gathering growing support in Westminster. My point is that wherever the seat of Government is, there will always be communities who feel disengaged or left out - Independence will not solve this. (4)

Scotland does not need to provide free prescriptions to all, it does not need to give bus passes to over 60's still in full time employment, it doesn't need to provide free access to tertiary education as if it was some god given right, no tolls on bridges, free child care for all, Council Tax freeze for 7 years.... What Scotland needs to do is live within it's means and stop blaming WM for all of it's ills - which is why I single out the give-away politics of the SNP as not being comparable. We simply cannot afford all of this - certainly the rest of UK cannot either. The SNP/SG accounts for all the money spent, no issue, but it is frivolous in its spending policies to win cheap votes and to meet political ends - resulting in the referendum. (5)

Why did the SG not use its power to raise income tax to generate more revenue to pay for these policies - purely because it would be very unpopular and alternatively they could blame WM for not giving us enough money to deal with the current issues in Scotland instead of dealing with it within their powers. Perhaps money saved by not giving free University education could have been used to deal with some aspects of child/fuel poverty or similar? All this talk about inclusion and equality but they're more concerned with sending a limited amount of people to Uni for free rather than keeping families fed. Talk about Tory policies? (6)

On your NHS point - as long as that service remains devolved, the decision to keep it publicly owned rests with the incumbent SG. (7)

Don't spout nonsense about the future of industrialisation in a independent nation. One of our most traditional and famous industries will die as a result of a Yes vote. No matter what Salmond says, the MoD will not build complex warships out with UK borders, and the Faslane naval base will close. Thousands will lose their jobs as a result and entire communities will die. This might sound dramatic but it is the reality of the situation. You can bang on about renewable energy as much as you like but that industry is heavily subsidised, hence the amount of R&D in this country. Those subsidies will end soon, then what? As with most technology based industries, manufacturing will move to where it is cheaper as soon as the tech is mature. (

(1) yeah and there is plenty of examples on the other side, ranging from death threats against Alex Salmond to the nastier side of twitter.

(2) If running a nation were like running a business, the UK would've been in recievership a long time ago. it absolutely is not the case that 'balancing the books' is an essential part of running a country. Even at it's most wildly successful, imperial peak Britain ran a massive debt. Further, the white paper is a framework that shows how the SNP would like to run things, it's a placeholder, aspirational and with an attmept to provide figures where possible. In cases where the UK refuses to pre-negotiate, how could it be detailed? And as I've said previously, the whole thing can be easily overtaken by events. For all we know, the Common Weal's book might end up being the blue print for an iScotland. The idea that an iScotland is a huge risk to living standards is pure hyperbole. Scotland's economy ticks over at 99% of UK average GDP without the geographical share of oil. We aren't going to be significantly richer or poorer in the short term via independence. That's not fundamentally the reason for doing it, but rather for organising a more flexible and responsive democracy.

(3) The fact that Scots are over represented and still only account for 59 out of 650 MPs shows how unfit for purpose the Union is. While it may be correct for the English to have the massive majority of representation, it does not mean that the Scots are not ill served by it.

(4) No, I'm not championing federalism. I recognise that the SNP have been guilty of centrlasiing functions at Holyrood to create that place as an alternative and credible seat of government to Westminster. I'm also aware that Labour never had much truck with local democracy either. For the record I'm all for devolving much more to local democracies and massively reforming away from the current council structures. What independence offers is legislators much closer to the populace they serve, a government that is automatically dependent on the votes of the Scots people in a way that Westminster barely ever has been. real competition in elections and a strong like between legislator and electorate. We will need to be careful not to over represent the central belt with repsect to the rural communities, of course. That's an issue of detail, thoguh, not of intent.

Scotland is a self contained polity, held together by shared experience of history and the land we share. It's only logical that this polity should be in charge of it's own destiny, to choose it's interdependencies with others, not have them imposed on us rigidly.

(5) Actually, no government has to provide anything, ever - beyond the absolute basic function of central government: the organsiation of taxation to provide defence of property. Anything beyond that is based on the perogative of the government and the culture it serves to provide additional social preotection for it's citizens. In this case, the SNP has organised policies it feels shows it's social priorities towards more vulnerable parts of society. Disagree with that all you want, but 'frivolous spending policies' accoutn for 99% of all policies in all governments,everywhere - by your definition.

(6) the power to raise income tax alone is pretty worthless without having the other levers of fiscal policy. It's like asking for a car, and being given a wheel and a piston head. You have more of a car today than yesterday, but you still can't drive anywhere. Fact is, when it comes ot education, that is the silver bullet. A healthy and educated electorate performs better collectively and individually, and helps drive the economey and individual self sufficiency.#

(7) Since the bloc grant is derived partially from Westminster spending, it'd be naive to think that as the Westmisnter government hands over more of the English and Welsh NHS to private consortiums and reduces it's health spending accordingly, that this will not transmit into cuts in the block grant, putting the Scottish NHS under increased pressure.

( IN the year I was born (1984) There were 25,000 shipbuilding jobs in Scotland, now there are 6,000 - Union dividend? Fact is that long standing Westminster policies are not conducive to maintaining the shipbuilding industry, wholly dependent as it is on defence contracts. This proud and famous industry is circling the drain even if you vote no, for a few simple reasons: successive generations of warships are bought in smaller quantities and last longer before needing replaced. Once the T-26 contract is fulfilled there is a huge, gaping hole in the order books that won't be filled. Then what?

As for Faslane, for a start, most of the defence contractors stay down south, so any decimation of local communities is unlikely to have a huge effect. secondly, it won't close as it'll be used as the HQ for the Scottish defence forces.

as for technology maturing, yes, it does. I work in the Silicon industries and am acutely aware of that. Which goes back to education and university funding. The only way western nations compete is by constantly driving new technology, bringing it to maturity and then moving to the next tehcnology. You need a flexible, well educated and healthy workforce to do that.

[RavyDavy]

WTF! Cover blown, knows fk all.

^^^ Value add = ZERO

nothing constructive to say so just tries to make a witty put down.

[Confidemus]

There were plenty of vile messages left on the girls social media - being a Labour party member doesn't stop her being a "normal mum". nor does it give people the right to hide behind keyboards and type vile messages. Why do you need to defend it - I'd actually respect you a little if you condemned it.

Show me one "vile message" left on her social media.

No one had a go at her. What part of that are you struggling with?

People, quite rightly, had a pop at BetterTogether for trying to pass her off as a "normal mother", when she was anything but. No one said she wasn't a good mum, hell she could be a fantastic mum, but to pass her off as "an ordinary mum" is plain misleading.

Is it starting to sink in yet, or is all this bouncing off your Daily Mail hardhat?

[Baxter Parp]

How soon after independence would we be saddled with £1.5 Billion worth of debt

Serious question

You think it'll be as low as that?

[ayrmad]

How soon after independence would we be saddled with £1.5 Billion worth of debt and would our increase in Oil revenues be agreed and received before or after we took on our share of the national debt?

Serious question

Are we taking on all the debt?

Serious question.

[Baxter Parp]

Why is this misinformed? Because you say so? Because it doesn't conform to your point of view, because it challenges your ideals? I'd particularly love to hear your views on the ship building point and how the manufacturing sector works - in fact I can barely contain myself.

There were plenty of vile messages left on the girls social media - being a Labour party member doesn't stop her being a "normal mum". nor does it give people the right to hide behind keyboards and type vile messages. Why do you need to defend it - I'd actually respect you a little if you condemned it.

You're not challenging anybody's ideals, you're peddling the same old tired shit that's been passing for a valid point of view for months now. Every word has been totally debunked.

And no, there were no vile messages on that "ordinary" shadow cabinet member's twitter feed. Otherwise you would've provided some by now.

[Blaven]

I haven't complained about being stereotyped.... And I really don't think anything is more moronic than the personal attacks on JK Rowling or the young lass from Glasgow for publicly supporting a side. There are plenty more examples of this kind of behaviour.

If I went to a bank to get a business loan with a plan as vague and baseless as the white paper, i'd be shown the door, so why would I vote for it? Running a country requires many of the same fundamentals as running a business - first and foremost you must balance the books and given the information available today. there is no evidence to suggest that an independent nation could execute the policies/ideals without running a huge deficit. What you are actually saying is that this a vote of faith - vote on the basis of an idea (a concept)? It's reckless and irresponsible in this context at best - you risk the living standards and livelihoods of an entire country. If you've got nothing to lose - go for it. Most people however, have plenty to lose and have more important priorities in life.

You talk about Westminster like there is no Scottish representation in there at all.... Scottish voters have a better than average representation in Westminster in terms of MPs to number of constituents, and is better represented overall than English voters. The problem you have is that decisions are made there for UK as a whole, but that's why you have devolution.

But break your argument down further - an independent Scottish parliament will be central belt-centric - it has to be because that is where the bulk of the populous is, so how about folks from the highlands and Islands, do things change for them? Do they really want all decisions relating to them being made in Edinburgh? Are they getting the government they want - central belt needs are completely different to H&I's. The SNP have progressively centralised power at Holyrood, preventing local authorities from doing what they need to do for their communities. What you're actually championing here is Federalism, which is gathering growing support in Westminster. My point is that wherever the seat of Government is, there will always be communities who feel disengaged or left out - Independence will not solve this.

Scotland does not need to provide free prescriptions to all, it does not need to give bus passes to over 60's still in full time employment, it doesn't need to provide free access to tertiary education as if it was some god given right, no tolls on bridges, free child care for all, Council Tax freeze for 7 years.... What Scotland needs to do is live within it's means and stop blaming WM for all of it's ills - which is why I single out the give-away politics of the SNP as not being comparable. We simply cannot afford all of this - certainly the rest of UK cannot either. The SNP/SG accounts for all the money spent, no issue, but it is frivolous in its spending policies to win cheap votes and to meet political ends - resulting in the referendum.

Why did the SG not use its power to raise income tax to generate more revenue to pay for these policies - purely because it would be very unpopular and alternatively they could blame WM for not giving us enough money to deal with the current issues in Scotland instead of dealing with it within their powers. Perhaps money saved by not giving free University education could have been used to deal with some aspects of child/fuel poverty or similar? All this talk about inclusion and equality but they're more concerned with sending a limited amount of people to Uni for free rather than keeping families fed. Talk about Tory policies?

On your NHS point - as long as that service remains devolved, the decision to keep it publicly owned rests with the incumbent SG.

Don't spout nonsense about the future of industrialisation in a independent nation. One of our most traditional and famous industries will die as a result of a Yes vote. No matter what Salmond says, the MoD will not build complex warships out with UK borders, and the Faslane naval base will close. Thousands will lose their jobs as a result and entire communities will die. This might sound dramatic but it is the reality of the situation. You can bang on about renewable energy as much as you like but that industry is heavily subsidised, hence the amount of R&D in this country. Those subsidies will end soon, then what? As with most technology based industries, manufacturing will move to where it is cheaper as soon as the tech is mature.

Think you have lost the plot. " entire communities will die" .

Faslane wont close. It will be A Scottish Naval base.

Are you saying that without Navy ships being built on the Clyde, that Glasgow will be unsustainable?

You are very good at foreseeing the very worst that could happen.

Time to wake up and look at this in a more posotive light and stop telling us what we CANT do.

[1320Lichtie]

Wow Renton. Racy Davy = owned.

You're a very good poster.

RavyDavy, question, why do you not think that Scotland should have a Scottish government elected by Scottish people making decisions (having ALL the powers) for and in the interests of Scotland, in Scotland?

I don't get it.

[Blaven]

How soon after independence would we be saddled with £1.5 Billion worth of debt and would our increase in Oil revenues be agreed and received before or after we took on our share of the national debt?

Serious question

How soon after a NO vote will we be saddled with £1.5 trillion worth of debt?

[Confidemus]

How soon after a NO vote will we be saddled with £1.5 trillion worth of debt?

How soon after a No vote will Barnett be recalculated and a decision made to have a UK wide single NHS?

[Blaven]

How soon after a No vote will Barnett be recalculated and a decision made to have a UK wide single NHS?

Moments?

[Confidemus]

Moments?

Seconds even. Us good guys reserve the right to point the finger.

[RedRob72]

How soon after a NO vote will we be saddled with £1.5 trillion worth of debt?

That's not what I asked, yes we are struggling but I guess managing that debt already as a nation. (UK)

But again, how soon after independence would we be asked to take our share of the debt and would it coincide with an agreed increased share in Oil revenues?

And if not how would we service that debt and still be able to borrow from International banks to fund new infrastructure/service investments, in Health, Education, Housing, Industry etc.

It's not a point scoring statement it's a straight question.