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[Confidemus]

Yeah I'm BOARD with him.

He clearly has STEAM coming out of his ears.

[Blaven]

He clearly has STEAM coming out of his ears.

He must be finding it all a bit dePRESSing.

[Confidemus]

He must be finding it all a bit dePRESSing.

Let's hope his attempts to defend the Union deCREASE as a result.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

The jokes here are not very punny.

I'll get my coat . . .

[vikingTON]

I'd think that class is the one that I most associate with. The biggest issue for me is the class divide in Scotland and the UK.

Truly amazing how many of the dwindling bunch of internationalist class warriors consider Scotland/UK to be fundamentally a single, indivisable issue, but mysteriously ditch any and all concern for their class comrades across the Channel or indeed in the Republic of Ireland. If we were to think about a Venn diagram of those who still laughably claim to use 'class' as their decisive concept of identity (leaving aside the fact that literally no society in the whole world does so, which makes it about as relevant as using shoe size or favourite pint), you'd find every single one of them, when push comes to shove, in the raging Britnat circle also. But of course, coming out and admitting to being a Britnat is as comfortable a position as being a 1970s TV presenter at the moment, so instead we get the crocodile tears treatment about how important it is that workers in Glasgow and Manchester unite. But definitely not Manchester and Lille.

You've fooled absolutely no-one here.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Truly amazing how many of the dwindling bunch of internationalist class warriors consider Scotland/UK to be fundamentally a single, indivisable issue, but mysteriously ditch any and all concern for their class comrades across the Channel or indeed in the Republic of Ireland. If we were to think about a Venn diagram of those who still laughably claim to use 'class' as their decisive concept of identity (leaving aside the fact that literally no society in the whole world does so, which makes it about as relevant as using shoe size or favourite pint), you'd find every single one of them, when push comes to shove, in the raging Britnat circle also. But of course, coming out and admitting to being a Britnat is as comfortable a position as being a 1970s TV presenter at the moment, so instead we get the crocodile tears treatment about how important it is that workers in Glasgow and Manchester unite. But definitely not Manchester and Lille.

You've fooled absolutely no-one here.

Oh unite them across the world.

I've never been a great believer in states or boundaries/borders.

They are usually created by the ruling classes to divide and rule.

Edited August 20, 2014 by DeeTillEhDeh

[vikingTON]

Oh unite them across the world.

I've never been a great believer in states or boundaries/borders.

They are usually created by the ruling classes to divide and rule.

So I presume then you've been contributing your political resources to campaigns dissolving the UK state then?

Seems legit.

[forza ton]

This whole "I don't believe in borders maaaaan" shit is ridiculous. Grow up. The world population is ordered into nation states and thank f**k that it is. This is the way of things so stop coming out with the 'last refuge of the scoundrel' line because all your other unionist pish has been debunked.

Scotland is not a region and anyone claiming it is is a moron. The act of union was between Scotland and England not Lanarkshire and Lincolnshire. Indeed, this argument is the last refuge of the britnat fandan

Edited August 20, 2014 by forza ton

[DeeTillEhDeh]

So I presume then you've been contributing your political resources to campaigns dissolving the UK state then?

Seems legit.

To create another state?

No.

Historically most wars are about borders, power and money.

You have to look at the Romans - Hadrian's wall was created to split the Celtic tribes and act as a taxation border.

Ruling classes divide and rule.

That's not to say power should not be decentralised to the most appropriate level as possible. But that's a different debate altogether.

[vikingTON]

NB: I presume DeeTillEhDeh and the resident Berwick bore practice what they preach on the whole class consciousness thing and actually vote for the mental left-wing splinter parties who get about 150 votes total across the UK at general elections? Or do they actually unfailingly vote for Labour and other parties which have absolutely no interest in class conflict as "the big issue", either within or across borders, and haven't done so for decades?

Hmm, it's a toughie.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

This whole "I don't believe in borders maaaaan" shit is ridiculous. Grow up. The world population is ordered into nation states and thank f**k that it is. This is the way of things so stop coming out with the 'last refuge of the scoundrel' line because all your other unionist pish has been debunked.

Scotland is not a region and anyone claiming it is is a moron. The act of union was between Scotland and England not Lanarkshire and Lincolnshire. Indeed, this argument is the last refuge of the britnat fandan

It's "Patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel."

Einstein has far better quotes on nationality.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

NB: I presume DeeTillEhDeh and the resident Berwick bore practice what they preach on the whole class consciousness thing and actually vote for the mental left-wing splinter parties who get about 150 votes total across the UK at general elections? Or do they actually unfailingly vote for Labour and other parties which have absolutely no interest in class conflict as "the big issue", either within or across borders, and haven't done so for decades?

Hmm, it's a toughie.

Voted for Stewart Hosie in 2012 as the best of a bad bunch.

[vikingTON]

To create another state?

No.

Historically most wars are about borders, power and money.

You have to look at the Romans - Hadrian's wall was created to split the Celtic tribes and act as a taxation border.

Ruling classes divide and rule.

That's not to say power should not be decentralised to the most appropriate level as possible. But that's a different debate altogether.

For someone sliding so easily into socialist parody earlier, you clearly haven't actually grasped what the international, class-conscious system is *supposed* to look like. In an international class-based order - which you seem to love so much - there wouldn't be a need for a state at all. So... if your political commitment is as you claim based on resolving class issues, then you ought to be first on the list for joining parties dissolving the UK and all other states as well. But of course you're not: because class doesn't actually operate as the great and noble source of identity you like to claim for it, even for yourself. Which is unsurprising: given absolutely no-one else in society operates using class as their main identity source either.

No fucking idea why you thought throwing a giant Roman straw man into a discussion of class would help your badly flagging position though.

[BerwickMad]

NB: I presume DeeTillEhDeh and the resident Berwick bore practice what they preach on the whole class consciousness thing and actually vote for the mental left-wing splinter parties who get about 150 votes total across the UK at general elections? Or do they actually unfailingly vote for Labour and other parties which have absolutely no interest in class conflict as "the big issue", either within or across borders, and haven't done so for decades?

Hmm, it's a toughie.

I didn't say I voted along class lines. I could group myself with other people in a number of different ways. Class is just one of them. Language maybe another. Sexuality, gender, age, religion are others. I don't consider nationality to be that important. I'm not a nationalist.

[vikingTON]

It's "Patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel."

Einstein has far better quotes on nationality.

Not sure why you thought a theoretical physicist would prove the voice of authority on complex social scientific questions of identity. Then again you also thought that the Roman Empire had something to do with it, so I guess we should expect more of these clown-running-across-a-minefield displays while you tragically try and find a way of explaining away your blatant Britnat stance.

[vikingTON]

I didn't say I voted along class lines. I could group myself with other people in a number of different ways. Class is just one of them. Language maybe another. Sexuality, gender, age, religion are others. I don't consider nationality to be that important. I'm not a nationalist.

Not a single one of the above operate as a significant political cleveage in this country, and certainly not class. You'd struggle to find a single party on a ballot sheet, in the UK, who stand behind any of the above identity brackets. Nationality on the other hand is quite clearly the dominant, politically significant source of identity in the UK, so unless you're withdrawing to a cloister for the next 50 years then I'm afraid you'll have to deal with that fact.

[SodjesSixteenIncher]

Good mate of mine wrote a piece about this subject: http://nationalcollective.com/2014/08/15/callum-macdonald-its-time-we-face-the-difference-between-britishness-and-the-british-state/

Of course he’s correct that nations are social constructs, but ultimately “Scotland” is no less arbitrary than any other country. British nationalism is no less arbitrary than Scottish nationalism. If the unionist alternative truly embraced a borderless world of no nation-states, then this logic might be more valid. Patently it does not, so the issue instead is not the existence of the nation-state but how well it works for the people who live there and how it relates to the rest of the world. Virtually no one on either side of the campaign would refute that Scotland is a country in its own right, therefore its claims to statehood and self-determination are no less divisive than those of any other country, especially when it is regularly ruled by a government that very few of its citizens voted for, imposing policies which decimate communities. If sharing a government with its much larger neighbour had a recent track record of improving the lives of the people of Scotland, to say nothing of those in the rUK, then fuzzy assertions of “unity” and brazenly hypocritical allusions to post-nationalism might hold some ground.

Word.

Edited August 20, 2014 by SodjesSixteenIncher

[BerwickMad]

Not a single one of the above operate as a significant political cleveage in this country, and certainly not class. You'd struggle to find a single party on a ballot sheet, in the UK, who stand behind any of the above identity brackets. Nationality on the other hand is quite clearly the dominant, politically significant source of identity in the UK, so unless you're withdrawing to a cloister for the next 50 years then I'm afraid you'll have to deal with that fact.

Jesus Christ! I'm not looking for a party to represent one of them. That's my whole fuckin point! I'm not a fan of division. I don't need to vote along those lines. I will vote for what I think is best for me and the people I care about. I will take into consideration what I think is best for the most number of people too when making my decision.

I may consider some of them, like class, when coming to a decision, but alone they aren't important enough for me to care about that much. There are too many ways we can divide ourselves to bother about. I'm not a fan of grouping people. I am not a nationalist.

[forza ton]

It's "Patriotism is the refuge of the scoundrel."

Aye, that was the joke, you thick twat.

[ayrmad]

If we truly gave a shite about the poor across the world we wouldn't be doing things like buying sportswear produced in sweatshops across the world.