Latest Polls and Latest Odds

[Mr Waldo]

4 hours ago, SandyCromarty said:

Never an SNP voter.

Take your vote to the tories or tory labour and remain a 2nd class citizen in a supposed union.

Your rants will appeal to only a section of SNP supporters, a smaller section of floating voters and a minority of Scottish voters.

If you really cared for your cause, you'd be asking questions and trying to find out how you can 'convert' as many voters as possible but, there are Union Flag wavers on one side, people like you on the other with normality and common sense somewhere in the middle.

 

[SandyCromarty]

32 minutes ago, Mr Waldo said:

Your rants will appeal to only a section of SNP supporters, a smaller section of floating voters and a minority of Scottish voters.

If you really cared for your cause, you'd be asking questions and trying to find out how you can 'convert' as many voters as possible but, there are Union Flag wavers on one side, people like you on the other with normality and common sense somewhere in the middle.

 

The young voter, who unlike the older populace, have no history of oneness with the english or it's one sided union, will be the ones who eventually tip the scales towards Independence.

[vikingTON]

Arguments based on demographic inevitability alone are piss-poor covers for a failure to take the cause forward. Sturgeon lolloping along with her second referendum legal case instead of just salami-slicing more powers until you can practically send an email to Westminster to punt them out for good is a strategic blunder that has to be reversed. Yousaf will have to fall for that reset to happen: he's too embedded within the former regime to credibly shift course. 

[ICTJohnboy]

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/26/unionists-must-work-together-quash-snp-magic-independence/

 

Can only get the first sentence of this article here, but it's enough to let us know where we stand in the grand scheme of things.

[John Lambies Doos]

39 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2023/05/26/unionists-must-work-together-quash-snp-magic-independence/

 

Can only get the first sentence of this article here, but it's enough to let us know where we stand in the grand scheme of things.

We are so wee and stupid

[Antlion]

2 hours ago, John Lambies Doos said:

We are so wee and stupid

Funnily enough, I don’t see him claiming that given the UK has managed to f**k up independence from Europe so badly, the silly proles across Britain really just need to be told that Brussels must intervene to keep them in line.

[Theroadlesstravelled]

Starmer is going to kill the oil industry when elected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/97240c64-fca1-11ed-aa31-73394e195d29?shareToken=b6395b0717771e8c112143cf1d1e4090

The fishermen voting Brexit and the oil industry voting No. The North East getting their comeuppance-

 

[ICTJohnboy]

12 hours ago, Theroadlesstravelled said:

Starmer is going to kill the oil industry when elected.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/97240c64-fca1-11ed-aa31-73394e195d29?shareToken=b6395b0717771e8c112143cf1d1e4090

The fishermen voting Brexit and the oil industry voting No. The North East getting their comeuppance-

 

 

You mean that's what he's saying just now.

[GTee]

On 27/05/2023 at 17:53, virginton said:

Arguments based on demographic inevitability alone are piss-poor covers for a failure to take the cause forward. Sturgeon lolloping along with her second referendum legal case instead of just salami-slicing more powers until you can practically send an email to Westminster to punt them out for good is a strategic blunder that has to be reversed. Yousaf will have to fall for that reset to happen: he's too embedded within the former regime to credibly shift course. 

I know what you are saying. But you don't think there is a demographic thing here?

[Dons_1988]

10 hours ago, GTee said:

I know what you are saying. But you don't think there is a demographic thing here?

Of course there is and you would hope the direction of travel is that the younger generations will continue to grow the support. 

But it’s not enough to just sit and wait for those generations to become a majority and keep your fingers crossed that there isn’t a fundamental change in dynamics in that to shift it away from independence. 

The lack of campaigning for a positive, credible case for independence has been a real issue for years now. Criticising Westminster and the flaws of the status quo has its place in the debate but again, it’s not enough. 

I really believe there’s a huge chunk of don’t knows and soft no’s who would be open minded to voting yes if fundamental questions were answered on what an independent Scotland would look like. 

[TheScarf]

4 minutes ago, Dons_1988 said:

Of course there is and you would hope the direction of travel is that the younger generations will continue to grow the support. 

But it’s not enough to just sit and wait for those generations to become a majority and keep your fingers crossed that there isn’t a fundamental change in dynamics in that to shift it away from independence. 

The lack of campaigning for a positive, credible case for independence has been a real issue for years now. Criticising Westminster and the flaws of the status quo has its place in the debate but again, it’s not enough. 

I really believe there’s a huge chunk of don’t knows and soft no’s who would be open minded to voting yes if fundamental questions were answered on what an independent Scotland would look like. 

Yep.

We criticise the Tories and Labour for not coming up with credible policies when they slate an SNP one.  There needs to be more 'This is why independence is the best thing for Scotland'  as opposed to 'Look how right wing and shite the Tories and Labour are'.

 

[git-intae-thum]

It appears that those with the intellect, political skill and will to present the arguments on big policies such as on currency, tax, pensions, defence etc are just not visible in the party.....certainly not above activist level.

When it comes to independence the leadership of the SNP has been a thought vacuum since the referendum.

[Gringo]

47 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

It appears that those with the intellect, political skill and will to present the arguments on big policies such as on currency, tax, pensions, defence etc are just not visible in the party.....certainly not above activist level.

When it comes to independence the leadership of the SNP has been a thought vacuum since the referendum.

Maybe it’s because there just aren’t any viable solutions to the big questions other than we are poorer for at least 10 years?

[git-intae-thum]

12 minutes ago, Gringo said:

Maybe it’s because there just aren’t any viable solutions to the big questions other than we are poorer for at least 10 years?

Just like all the other small Western European countries with nothing like Scotlands resources?

[picklish]

But none of them are considering political upheaval in the same way. 

I think that the small c conservative voter base is extremely difficult to overcome, more so following Brexit, and even well thought out spiels about the sunlit uplands post-indy aren't going to be enough to assuage their fears.

Who are the activists (or writers, journalists, trade unionists, academics etc) who have ideas to move things forward? I'm unsure of any - not to say they don't exist, but that I don't know them.

Edited May 29, 2023 by picklish
Sunlight

[Antlion]

28 minutes ago, Gringo said:

Maybe it’s because there just aren’t any viable solutions to the big questions other than we are poorer for at least 10 years?

I’m sure they’ll look viable when plastered on the side of a bus - you know, the way the UK plans its independent future.

[git-intae-thum]

10 minutes ago, picklish said:

But none of them are considering political upheaval in the same way. 

I think that the small c conservative voter base is extremely difficult to overcome, more so following Brexit, and even well thought out spiels about the sunlit uplands post-indy aren't going to be enough to assuage their fears.

Who are the activists (or writers, journalists, trade unionists, academics etc) who have ideas to move things forward? I'm unsure of any - not to say they don't exist, but that I don't know them.

The 2014 independence campaign was full of activists from all parts of society.

Numerous leading economists have discussed and provided opinion.

The information and arguments are still present and viable.....even if the Britnat press has continued to ignore them.......conveniently for the Sturgeon led devolutionist SNP. 

The UK idea of managed decline and slow impoverishment in comparison to our neighbouring small Western European neighbours is just not very appealing.

 

[picklish]

Tactically, is it better to ignore the uncertainty about joining the EU or EFTA, and division of assets and debt - things which require another party (whether Westminster or EU) to agree to, or to make statements about that which can't be know for certain?

Tactically, is it better to ignore demands on currency and pensions, or have thorough and clear outlines on these matters that might not be possible to stick to?

Tactically is it better to say 'when you're doing up your house, you'll make it messy first, but the outcome will be worth it' or to say 'the UK is such a state that despite upheaval of indy, Scotland will rapidly improve standards of living, as well as democratic deficits'? 

I think there's other questions along these lines that the SNP don't seem to have a good consensus for how to approach, nor do the average indy supporter, and making decisions like this is necessary 

[picklish]

4 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said:

The 2014 independence campaign was full of activists from all parts of society.

Numerous leading economists have discussed and provided opinion.

The information and arguments are still present and viable.....even if the Britnat press has continued to ignore them.......conveniently for the Sturgeon led devolutionist SNP. 

The UK idea of managed decline and slow impoverishment in comparison to our neighbouring small Western European neighbours is just not very appealing.

 

Right, but I mean just now, with the specific questions that are brought up by soft no's and don't knows, which writers give good, rational, answers that I can read? Not things from 9 years ago - but just now.

We're post Brexit, post COVID, face multiple changes to our way of work, like working from home and increased automation, and have a European war happening - things have changed, we need better responses and a stronger vision. I agree the SNP leadership don't provide it. But who does?

[git-intae-thum]

18 minutes ago, picklish said:

Tactically, is it better to ignore the uncertainty about joining the EU or EFTA, and division of assets and debt - things which require another party (whether Westminster or EU) to agree to, or to make statements about that which can't be know for certain?

Tactically, is it better to ignore demands on currency and pensions, or have thorough and clear outlines on these matters that might not be possible to stick to?

Tactically is it better to say 'when you're doing up your house, you'll make it messy first, but the outcome will be worth it' or to say 'the UK is such a state that despite upheaval of indy, Scotland will rapidly improve standards of living, as well as democratic deficits'? 

I think there's other questions along these lines that the SNP don't seem to have a good consensus for how to approach, nor do the average indy supporter, and making decisions like this is necessary 

..these are the issues that the SNP should have been concentrating on since indyref1.

In spite of the snp there has still been a lot of research done on issues such as currency

https://www.reservebank.scot/

for example..... that is not really that well known.

The information and argument is all their. It just needs a political platform and will to be put across. That is not present at the moment.

Whilst we are at it though.....I look forward to each UKgov publishing details of its plans for defence, foreign relations, pensions, economic growth, inflation, interest rates, housing etc etc for the coming decades...in detail....so we can all make sure we have the info needed to make an informed choice on independence.

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by git-intae-thum
Typo