welshbairn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I can't imagine much more than pilot error, or even pilot sabotage. Do you know much about helicopters? Knowing next to nothing myself, I could imagine a tool left accidentally by an engineer shaking loose and jamming the works, a catastrophic electrical failure, or some freak localised climatic event. To early to make a judgement I would've thought. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinkerbelle Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Just heard on the news that the chopper did indeed fly over Dalkeith earlier on the night that it crashed. I heard it flying over my house and it sounded very loud as if it was quite low. I thought it was strange at the time as I don't think that I had ever heard one before in the dark without it having a big searchlight turned on, looking for someone. I didn't think at the time that it was the same one that crashed but turns out it was. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Exactly as it says on the tin - the main rotor head was not turning at the point of impact. The main and tail rotors are powered by the engines but are not connected directly to them - this means that should the engines fail then the rotors would continue to rotate - helicopters can be successfully 'auto-rotated' to the ground under those circumstances - the fact that the rotors had stopped initially pointed to a major breakdown in the transmission system since even without power they should have continued to rotate! The report listed shows that the investigators were able to prove that the number two engine could rotate the rotor head but that damage suffered in the crash prevented the same check being carried out on the number one engine. Am I right in understanding that the only two possible ways the rotors could be stopped like that are gear box failure and/or pilot instruction? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Do you know much about helicopters? Knowing next to nothing myself, I could imagine a tool left accidentally by an engineer shaking loose and jamming the works, a catastrophic electrical failure, or some freak localised climatic event. To early to make a judgement I would've thought. No, no more than you do, but I would have thought something like a tool accidently left behind and jamming up the works would have left behind some evidence behind that would have been picked up by the investigators. I sincerely hope it wasn't pilot error, and that some cause will be found - by all accounts the pilot was a first class bloke - as others have stated though, the chances are we'll never know for sure what caused this tragic event. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 (edited) Am I right in understanding that the only two possible ways the rotors could be stopped like that are gear box failure and/or pilot instruction? Until someone who knows responds, I'd be amazed if nothing else could cause it, faulty bearings for instance? Electronics? P.S. The posters on the pilots' forum I linked above keep going on about the fuel, but I would have thought if it cut off the momentum of the blades would allow autorotating. Edited December 9, 2013 by welshbairn 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTJohnboy Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Just heard on the news that the chopper did indeed fly over Dalkeith earlier on the night that it crashed. I heard it flying over my house and it sounded very loud as if it was quite low. I thought it was strange at the time as I don't think that I had ever heard one before in the dark without it having a big searchlight turned on, looking for someone. I didn't think at the time that it was the same one that crashed but turns out it was. That's a strange one too. Why would this helicopter, based in Glasgow, and generally operating in the Glasgow area have flown to Dalkeith? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Until someone who knows responds, I'd be amazed if nothing else could cause it, faulty bearings for instance? Electronics? Bearings and electronics would come under gear box failure I guess. Again, I'm no expert, this is what I've been told. Was just checking with someone who knows what he's talking about that I understood correctly. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Am I right in understanding that the only two possible ways the rotors could be stopped like that are gear box failure and/or pilot instruction? I know of an Italian aircraft that crashed due to a rotor brake fault but I don't know if the rotors actually stopped on that occasion and I guess that would have been instantly spotted and reported by the Air Crash Investigators had it occurred on this incident. I would also surmise that to much Collective (basically 'pulling up' to make the aircraft climb) when there was no power to the rotor head could cause it to stop rotating ! That would need an initial fault or condition for him to have been doing that and we do have reports of the engine spluttering. I imagine there are other circumstances possible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Why is it whenever a chopper ditches that we / the media automatically assume that a mechanical / electrical fault is to blame yet if there's a car accident then 'careless driving' jumps to mind first? There was probably a better way of wording that but it's a genuine question, hopefully not making me sound like I'm automatically blaming the pilot or whatever. Is it just the case that (say) 90% of chopper accidents are down to mechanical failures whereas most car accidents are down to speeding / drink driver rather than a wheel falling off? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest The Phoenix Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Suspect we'll not know the definitive version of what caused the crash until Jock reports back from Farnborough House. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 That's a strange one too. Why would this helicopter, based in Glasgow, and generally operating in the Glasgow area have flown to Dalkeith? I have absolutely no idea what sort of jobs the police helicopter would have been tasked with but I was attached to the Search and Rescue at Prestwick for a short time and our Aircraft would routinely fly over to Edinburgh on jobs - mostly looking for folk who'd jumped off the Road Bridge it has to be said ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Why is it whenever a chopper ditches that we / the media automatically assume that a mechanical / electrical fault is to blame yet if there's a car accident then 'careless driving' jumps to mind first? Pilots of commercial\military aircraft tend to be slightly better trained than the average car driver. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Why is it whenever a chopper ditches that we / the media automatically assume that a mechanical / electrical fault is to blame yet if there's a car accident then 'careless driving' jumps to mind first? There was probably a better way of wording that but it's a genuine question, hopefully not making me sound like I'm automatically blaming the pilot or whatever. Is it just the case that (say) 90% of chopper accidents are down to mechanical failures whereas most car accidents are down to speeding / drink driver rather than a wheel falling off? It might be because most mechanical faults in a car occur at zero altitude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 Very fair and obvious (in retrospect) points, cheers. In my defence, my mind's mush after a whoor of a day. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sookma Broonstar Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 It might be because most mechanical faults in a car occur at zero altitude. Why, no. Very few roads are at zero altitude. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 I know of an Italian aircraft that crashed due to a rotor brake fault but I don't know if the rotors actually stopped on that occasion and I guess that would have been instantly spotted and reported by the Air Crash Investigators had it occurred on this incident. I would also surmise that to much Collective (basically 'pulling up' to make the aircraft climb) when there was no power to the rotor head could cause it to stop rotating ! That would need an initial fault or condition for him to have been doing that and we do have reports of the engine spluttering. I imagine there are other circumstances possible. If (in ideal circumstances), power is lost to the rotor head and the pilot manages autorotation, what are the chances of a safe landing from 1000 feet say? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sons superhero Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 It was my understanding that although possible to strike the ground with the rotor head first in powered flight, it would be impossible to make the copter tumble from the sky in the reported fashion with or without power to the rotors. Happy if someone can explain this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajwffc Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 That's a strange one too. Why would this helicopter, based in Glasgow, and generally operating in the Glasgow area have flown to Dalkeith? Any of the old police forces can call on the helicopter to aid them now it is one large force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 If (in ideal circumstances), power is lost to the rotor head and the pilot manages autorotation, what are the chances of a safe landing from 1000 feet say? This is where you need Jock 'cause I'm not a pilot - you do need some forward momentum and height to autorotate IIRC and both are interlinked - less height requires more speed ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ned Nederlander Posted December 9, 2013 Share Posted December 9, 2013 It was my understanding that although possible to strike the ground with the rotor head first in powered flight, it would be impossible to make the copter tumble from the sky in the reported fashion with or without power to the rotors. Happy if someone can explain this. I have already stated that I find it hard to come up with a combination that would have had the aircraft tumbling as reported and today's report is worded in a way that make me think it wasn't tumbling at all : "The helicopter did, however, remain approximately upright." ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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