HardyBamboo Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 What on earth are you talking about? In what way are "the people of Scotland" going to decide on matters the SNP are negotiating on post referendum "come the 19th"? Are they going to take us all down to the negotiations? Have a massive referendum on each point under consideration? This is excellent stuff. They have already decided, the SNP came to power with a Referendum commitment & the Scottish people gave them a mandate. As other folk keep saying, you have the opportunity to vote for another party in March 2016 if you dont think the SNP are doing a good enough job. Personally I think that the SNP would probably retain power in a 2016 General Election as I think there will still be ongoing negotiations &, the people will probably decide, that they are the guys most likely to get the best deal for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Blair Jenkins interviewed by Douglas Fraser Holyrood magazine salivates over Jenkins perceived poor performance and SNP focus group scepticism When Arguing Yes is No (some context to the whole campaign that you appear to be sadly lacking in, amongst many other things that you clearly lack) Knock yourself out, champ. I can carry on and on, if you like. There are many poltical divisions and differences of emphasis in the Yes campaign but for obvious reasons these have either been put to one side or smoothed over for now, in the face of a rapacious pro-Union press abs9olutely choking to fill their politics pages with "Yes campaign divided, Yes campaigner holed below the waterline, Internecine fighting shows Yes shouldn't be trusted with Scotland's future", and so on. That last point should be screamingly obvious even to a mind as closed as yours. Let's take your links one by one. 1) I can't see the full story as I've used up my limit on Herald articles. Nothing in the headline suggests any disagreement with the SNP. Perhaps you can provide the point of disagreement in a quote 2) That appears to be a Green Party disagreement with the SNP currency policy. Which I've, umm, already articulated. Patrick Harvie has slated their position. I see no mention here of Jenkins agreeing with Havey and disagreeing with the SNP. In fact, Jenkins has been quoted as saying "common currency is common sense". Please give me the quotes where he disagrees with the SNP. 3) Again, I'm failing to see any quotes from Jenkins criticising an SNP position, or disagreeing with an SNP position. All this appears to do is "welcome" the braod church of Independence campaigners. 4) Again, failing to see any quotes from Jenkins disagreeing with any SNP position, on anything. Perhaps you can provide them. 5) Again, where are the Jenkins disagreements with SNP policy and quotes criticising an SNP position? Amusingly, searching the article for "Jenkins", first finds this in the comments - from your own "source". "My concern about Yes Scotland is actually that I think it needs to be seen as distinct from the SNP. One example was Noon’s piece in the Scotland on Sunday, it was an excellent piece but also served as a reminder that Yes Scotland’s head strategist used to be Alex Salmonds strategist. Similarly it seems that Yes Scotland is consistently agreeing with SNP lines and welcoming announcements and I’m not sure how many new converts this wins. That’s not to say that Yes Scotland should be critisising the SNP for the sake of it but I’m not sure that Blair Jenkins should have taken a position on NATO, for example. The reason for this is simple; unless significant numbers of people who dont vote SNP vote YES then the result will be an overwhelming defeat. Wwell that didn't work out very well for you did it? Unless you were trying to point out that Yes Scotland has members of it's coalition who do not agree with the SNP - like Partick Harvie or Pat Kane perhaps. Something I have not only pointed out, but which is central to my point. Blair Jenkins supports the SNP position, regardless of what it is. NATO, the Currency Union, the EU legal advice etc etc. As the pro-Yes commentator above notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 They have already decided, the SNP came to power with a Referendum commitment & the Scottish people gave them a mandate. Not for the agenda the White Paper set out. But I have no issue with the SNP negotiating with the UK government post Refendum win, and imposing on us their negotiated settlement. It would be preferable for a national election post-referendum but pre negotiations, but that's not really practical. But let's not pretend that it's the "Scottish people" deciding the terms of these negotiations. It's not. It's the SNP. Yes, we have the ability in future years to elect a party to undo what the SNP do now, but that's true of every reasonable democracy everywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Let's take your links one by one. 1) I can't see the full story as I've used up my limit on Herald articles. Nothing in the headline suggests any disagreement with the SNP. Perhaps you can provide the point of disagreement in a quote 2) That appears to be a Green Party disagreement with the SNP currency policy. Which I've, umm, already articulated. Patrick Harvie has slated their position. I see no mention here of Jenkins agreeing with Havey and disagreeing with the SNP. In fact, Jenkins has been quoted as saying "common currency is common sense". Please give me the quotes where he disagrees with the SNP. 3) Again, I'm failing to see any quotes from Jenkins criticising an SNP position, or disagreeing with an SNP position. All this appears to do is "welcome" the braod church of Independence campaigners. 4) Again, failing to see any quotes from Jenkins disagreeing with any SNP position, on anything. Perhaps you can provide them. 5) Again, where are the Jenkins disagreements with SNP policy and quotes criticising an SNP position? Amusingly, searching the article for "Jenkins", first finds this in the comments - from your own "source". "My concern about Yes Scotland is actually that I think it needs to be seen as distinct from the SNP. One example was Noon’s piece in the Scotland on Sunday, it was an excellent piece but also served as a reminder that Yes Scotland’s head strategist used to be Alex Salmonds strategist. Similarly it seems that Yes Scotland is consistently agreeing with SNP lines and welcoming announcements and I’m not sure how many new converts this wins. That’s not to say that Yes Scotland should be critisising the SNP for the sake of it but I’m not sure that Blair Jenkins should have taken a position on NATO, for example. The reason for this is simple; unless significant numbers of people who dont vote SNP vote YES then the result will be an overwhelming defeat. Wwell that didn't work out very well for you did it? Unless you were trying to point out that Yes Scotland has members of it's coalition who do not agree with the SNP - like Partick Harvie or Pat Kane perhaps. Something I have not only pointed out, but which is central to my point. Blair Jenkins supports the SNP position, regardless of what it is. NATO, the Currency Union, the EU legal advice etc etc. As the pro-Yes commentator above notes. and now we go onto the H_B sentence parsing and clause-by-clause scrutiny, which you will hope to take on for pages and pages until everyone else has forgotten what you're talking about, loses the will to live, or both. The links provided show enough evidence of mutual irritation / disatisfaction between Jenkins and the SNP to reject your earlier claims that he is a "paid SNP lapdog". Moreover, the idea that somehow he has any kind of great respect amongst the SNP membership. It's of course totally unlike you to be "amused" and to bold the one claim which shows that one person agrees with the daft point you have spent all day making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 The links provided show enough evidence of mutual irritation / disatisfaction between Jenkins and the SNP Where? Specifically, which points does Jenkins disagree with/is dissatisfied with the SNP on? We've established he agrees with NATO membership, the EU legal position, the common currency. Note that on the currency point specifically, despite several Yes Scotland board members critcising the SNP's position on this, Jenkins is lockstep behind them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Also, where exactly have I stated in any way that Jenkins has "any kind of great respect amongst the SNP membership." Jenkins is a useless buffoon, and the SNP membership knows that as well as I do. Indeed several SNP members have publicly expressed their dissatisfaction with Jenkins' performance, given the Yes campaigns dreadful showings in the polls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 and now we go onto the H_B sentence parsing and clause-by-clause scrutiny, which you will hope to take on for pages and pages until everyone else has forgotten what you're talking about, loses the will to live, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Jenkins, delivering the Donaldson lecture :- Ensure you have a sick bag to hand before you read. "But before I do any of that, the first thing I would like to do is to say something on behalf of all of us who believe in an independent Scotland, and who have been waiting for the opportunity to have the vote we will have in two years’ time. And what I want to say to the Scottish National Party is “thank you”. Thank you for delivering the referendum. It was of course the victory of the SNP in last year’s Scottish elections, which has paved the way for this referendum campaign. But I am also aware of the many people over many years, some of them no longer with us, who worked hard to get us to where we are today. And so that large and growing number of people who believe in an independent Scotland but who are not members of this party have a debt of gratitude to the SNP……so, again, from all of us, thank you very much." "I am also delighted to have on our Board the Yes Minister herself, Nicola Sturgeon, fresh from her triumph in securing what I can only describe as a sensationally successful outcome in the referendum negotiations. I congratulate her and the First Minister on what they have achieved. What a toady. Shame it's too late for the Private Eye Order of the Brown Nose award for this gem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 and now we go onto the H_B sentence parsing and clause-by-clause scrutiny, which you will hope to take on for pages and pages until everyone else has forgotten what you're talking about, loses the will to live, or both. Yes, a predictable capitulation, after, once again, you are found to be talking utter nonsense. No doubt the NCC will be along to give you a hug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 and now we go onto the H_B sentence parsing and clause-by-clause scrutiny, which you will hope to take on for pages and pages until everyone else has forgotten what you're talking about, loses the will to live, or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 So, you were just talking utter nonsense then? The SNP would be negotiating post referendum win. Not "the Scottish people". What we'd get would be the SNP's vision. On Europe, NATO, and on the currency union. To name but three. If you actually think they are going to have neational referendums to decide these things prior to their supposed "end date" for Independence, you are more mad than I thought. You are too close-minded to see the bigger picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Jenkins, delivering the Donaldson lecture :- Ensure you have a sick bag to hand before you read. "But before I do any of that, the first thing I would like to do is to say something on behalf of all of us who believe in an independent Scotland, and who have been waiting for the opportunity to have the vote we will have in two years’ time. And what I want to say to the Scottish National Party is “thank you”. Thank you for delivering the referendum. It was of course the victory of the SNP in last year’s Scottish elections, which has paved the way for this referendum campaign. But I am also aware of the many people over many years, some of them no longer with us, who worked hard to get us to where we are today. And so that large and growing number of people who believe in an independent Scotland but who are not members of this party have a debt of gratitude to the SNP……so, again, from all of us, thank you very much." "I am also delighted to have on our Board the Yes Minister herself, Nicola Sturgeon, fresh from her triumph in securing what I can only describe as a sensationally successful outcome in the referendum negotiations. I congratulate her and the First Minister on what they have achieved. What a toady. Shame it's too late for the Private Eye Order of the Brown Nose award for this gem Thats nearly on topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Yes, a predictable capitulation, after, once again, you are found to be talking utter nonsense. No doubt the NCC will be along to give you a hug. no, it's just my opinion differs to yours. It really is that simple. There are many divisions and problems in the Yes camp which are kept hidden from public view for obvious reasons. I have given you some articles showing (in my view) that it is unfair to label Jenkins an "SNP toady". You don't agree. That's fine. What I'm not going to do is spend ten hours, and as many pages, debating with you on this one subject as your closed mind attempts to find vindication for whatever your hobbyhorse of the day is. If you want to claim a victory- I'm happy for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 There are many divisions and problems in the Yes camp which are kept hidden from public view for obvious reasons. There are many divisions in the Yes camp that are very public. Harvie, Fox, Canavan and Kane have all openly disagreed with the SNP's policy. Jenkins hasn't. He parrots the SNP line on everything, even when many of Yes Scotland's board members think they are talking utter w**k. That's the point. Jenkins is most definitely an SNP toady. As I've illustrated. You've singularly failed to provide any evidence of Jenkins not toeing the SNP party line, and instead supporting the views of say Harvie, Kane or Fox. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't agree, and the links provide satisfy me to some extent that this isn't the case. I don't really care if you think otherwise- you are welcome to. Jenkins has to agree with SNP policy in many areas as they are the biggest component of the campaign he is leading. This much is obvious. This is not to say that he slavishly follows everything they say, or that there is some kind of mutual admiration thing going on. There isn't. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 I don't agree, and the links provide satisfy me to some extent that this isn't the case. I don't really care if you think otherwise- you are welcome to. Jenkins has to agree with SNP policy in many areas as they are the biggest component of the campaign he is leading. This much is obvious. This is not to say that he slavishly follows everything they say, or that there is some kind of mutual admiration thing going on. There isn't. Just because you keep saying it doesn't make it true. Well, I'm glad you're satisfied. You have provided exactly zero evidence of Jenkins disagreeing with SNP policy. I have provided much evidence of Jenkins being in lockstep with SNP policy, even when that is contrary to several of his other Yes Scotland board members' views. Again, you repeat this canard about "mutual admiration". Where exactly, I will ask again, have I stated that the SNP admire Jenkins? There are several "unnamed SNP sources" who have slated the terrible job Jenkins is doing with Yes Scotland, and slated the direction and performance of Yes Scotland as an organisation. The facts bear out that you are wrong. The fact you have been forced to capitulate after a failed search to find any evidence to support your position speaks volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivo den Bieman Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 it's nice to have an angry everything-in-black-and.white-imaginary-alpha-male-narrative to comfort yourself with. "forced to capitulate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todders Posted February 10, 2014 Author Share Posted February 10, 2014 Isn't it time we stopped allowing H_B to drag threads off-topic like this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 Isn't it time we stopped allowing H_B to drag threads off-topic like this? We'd have nothing to talk about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tubbs Posted February 10, 2014 Share Posted February 10, 2014 An interesting point re democratic mandate post election. The referendum is a straight yes or no to a simple question. Does that then allow the SG to negotiate with HMG - well most people would say yes. But on what basis? the content of the white paper ? So are we then being asked to treat the white paper as the SG's manifesto? or the yes camp's manifesto. I suppose democratically an election to the Scottish Parliament should be held straight after any yes vote; but is that practical? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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