The Independence Vote, Afterwards.

[I'm Brian]

Have I been wooshed, and made an arse of it? Oh well c'est la vie if that's the case.

Judging by his initial points I would say deranged psychopath may be a good shout

[Al666]

Have I been wooshed, and made an arse of it? Oh well c'est la vie if that's the case.

Judging by his initial points I would say deranged psychopath may be a good shout

1. Yes

2. Unfortunately for you, no.

I am however aware that there are a number of important questions that those politicians and their supporters will not and cannot answer, eg;

What currency will we use in the event of a yes vote, particularly as a currency union will be ruled out by RUK?

What will be the start up costs for an independent Scotland (embassies, tax collection & defence to name but 3)?

How will we cover the gap in funding when we are no longer members of the EU, as it's highly unlikely there would be a seamless transition?

How do we make up the shortfall inrevenue when the finacial sector (currently making up 29% of the economy) moves south?

Why would we need more immigration when so many Scots are unemployedor on zero hours contracts?

Why should we continue to allow so many to claim benefits because they refuse jobs they feel are beneath them?

I could go on, but lets see if you can come up with some actual real answers, without resortingtoposting links to pro indy websites.

[Confidemus]

1. Yes

2. Unfortunately for you, no.

I am however aware that there are a number of important questions that those politicians and their supporters will not and cannot answer, eg;

What currency will we use in the event of a yes vote, particularly as a currency union will be ruled out by RUK?

What will be the start up costs for an independent Scotland (embassies, tax collection & defence to name but 3)?

How will we cover the gap in funding when we are no longer members of the EU, as it's highly unlikely there would be a seamless transition?

How do we make up the shortfall inrevenue when the finacial sector (currently making up 29% of the economy) moves south?

Why would we need more immigration when so many Scots are unemployedor on zero hours contracts?

Why should we continue to allow so many to claim benefits because they refuse jobs they feel are beneath them?

I could go on, but lets see if you can come up with some actual real answers, without resortingtoposting links to pro indy websites.

Lets take these one at a time shall we?

Currency Union:

10 reasons why the currency union is to Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s mutual economic benefit. 1) The rest of the UK relies on open trade with Scotland

Scotland is the rest of the UK’s most important and second largest trading market. Billions of pounds of goods arrive from England alone every month creating / safeguarding hundreds of thousands of jobs in the rest of the UK that rely upon having access to the Scottish market. For Westminster to enforce a currency barrier would go against rUK’s economic interests.

2) Scotland’s balance of payments ensures the stability of the pound sterling

Scotland is a key market for exports within the UK. The trading surplus of oil and gas, whisky and manufacturing provide stability for the UK balance of payments. This maintains the worth of the currency in international markets. rUK requires Scotland’s membership of sterling to protect the currency.

3) Economic experts support a currency union

The independent Fiscal Commission Working Group of globally renowned economists produced a considerable report into the macroeconomics of an independent Scotland conclusively supporting a currency union.

4) The financial markets and institutions support a currency union

Oliver Harvey, strategist for Deutsche Bank, described a Scotland-rUK Sterling arrangement as an “optimal currency area”

Valentin Marinov, the head of European Group-of-10 currency strategy at Citigroup added: “the potential introduction of a currency union need not affect significantly trade and other flows.”

5) The Treasury followed market pressure on debt and they will do the same on currency

The UK Treasury recently confirmed that they will secure the repayment of all the UK’s current debts. This was as a result of queries from the financial markets. Similarly, there will be calls for the UK Government to make quickly clarify the currency position if Scotland becomes independent. All the common sense economic evidence favours a currency union.

6) Mervyn King: UK Treasury approach would be “entirely different” following Yes vote.

Former Bank of England Governor Mervyn King has said that the UK Treasury approach to agreeing a currency union will be entirely different following independence. As it stands, Westminster politicians are engaging in political posturing during the referendum debate. After the referendum is finished economic common sense will prevail. The former Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is well placed to understand this.

7) Professor Hughes-Hallet dismissed Westminster politicians for “political posturing”

In a recent interview with BBC Scotland, Professor Andrew Hughes-Hallett, an expert in economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and a Professor at the University of St. Andrew’s, supported the currency union proposal.

He also said that: “The question is the running of it [the currency union], not the existence of it.” Westminster politicians, in his view, are engaging in “political posturing” while ignoring the economic evidence.

Westminster politicians will not rule out a currency union because it makes economic sense

Although Westminster politicians are negative and dismissive when it comes to cooperation after independence, all key representatives will not rule out a currency union. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls recently said he would hold discussions on the issue. Chancellor George Osborne knows that after a Yes vote the situation would change rapidly and he would have to act in the best interests of business and trade in the rest of the UK which means supporting a currency union. And now we know all the technical work will be complete.

Edit: George Osborne’s attempt to claim Scotland couldn’t use the pound, quickly backfired when another UK minister briefed the Guardian by saying “Of course there will be a currency union”.

9) The Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is already discussing the technicalities

Mark Carney’s presentation in Edinburgh was a key step towards a currency union after independence. It laid out the benefits of maintaining a currency union and opened up further dialogue between the Scottish Government, the Fiscal Commission Working Group and the Central Bank. The challenges that were set out by the Governor will be taken seriously – and there is a substantial length of time until March 2016 (when Scotland would become independent) to establish working arrangements and institutions to address them.

10) Even Alistair Darling says that a currency union is “logical” & “desirable”

Alistair Darling, leading the No Campaign, understands that the politics before the referendum will be overtaken by the economic common sense that follows it.

On Newsnight Scotland he said “Of course it would be desirable to have a currency union…If you have independence or separation, of course the currency union is logical.”

Start up costs

No one knows this exact figure, but an oil pension fund and scrapping Trident will help offset, plus the costs will be nothing like the UK's Treasury's vastly overblown figure. Unless you think we're too wee and too poor?

Also:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

No Longer Members of the EU?

http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions/how-will-scotland-become-an-independent-member-of-the-european-union/

How do we make up the shortfall inrevenue when the finacial sector (currently making up 29% of the economy) moves south?

What concrete proof do you have that the financial sector will move south?

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-financial-sector-will-thrive-after-a-yes-vote/

Why would we need more immigration when so many Scots are unemployedor on zero hours contracts?

Who has said we "need" more immigration? For unemployment/ zero hours contracts, ask your chums at Westminster what they plan to do about that.

Why should we continue to allow so many to claim benefits because they refuse jobs they feel are beneath them?

Can you give me exact figures of people refusing jobs they feel are beneath them? How do you feel about the fact that fraudulently claimed beneftits comprise less than half the amount of the amount of benefits that are currently unclaimed?

This doesn't help anyone. You've been hoodwinked by the Daily Mail/ Tories that every person on benefits is a scrounger. It's manifestly untrue.

Now you may not like "indy" web links, but the above all contain facts. Real facts.

I GUARANTEE you, anything you come up with for staying within the Union, I can debunk or throw back at you as a myth or scaremongering.

Try actually reading into some facts instead of letting the MSM dictate your views.

[I'm Brian]

1. Yes

2. Unfortunately for you, no.

I am however aware that there are a number of important questions that those politicians and their supporters will not and cannot answer, eg;

What currency will we use in the event of a yes vote, particularly as a currency union will be ruled out by RUK?

What will be the start up costs for an independent Scotland (embassies, tax collection & defence to name but 3)?

How will we cover the gap in funding when we are no longer members of the EU, as it's highly unlikely there would be a seamless transition?

How do we make up the shortfall inrevenue when the finacial sector (currently making up 29% of the economy) moves south?

Why would we need more immigration when so many Scots are unemployedor on zero hours contracts?

Why should we continue to allow so many to claim benefits because they refuse jobs they feel are beneath them?

I could go on, but lets see if you can come up with some actual real answers, without resortingtoposting links to pro indy websites.

OK let's take these one by one. I am afraid it looks as though you have been reeled in by the normal BS that floats about the unionists

The answer is the pound. Whether it is done in a currency union or not it is irrelevant. Not a single soul on this planet can prevent an independent Scotland adopting the pound as it's currency as long as it is freely tradable. My opinion is should a yes vote occur Westminster will be tripping over themselves to invite Scotland into a currency union. The preferred option of the current Scottish Government is the currency union one.

Start up costs, no idea. LSE reckoned it was something like £15m per department. Whatever it costs will be a price worth paying and when you consider the savings that will be made on things like Trident, HS2, house of lords etc, etc, it will be affordable, even if you use the discredited £1.5bn figure that the UK govt used. The assets of the UK are estimated to be £109tn. We are entitled to a share of this. and I am sure any negotiations will give us our share. If they don't we start life debt free. Whatever it will be affordable.

To use the three you quoted, Defence currently Scotland contributes £3.5 billion to the overall defence budget. Actual spending in Scotland is £1.9bn. Work it out for yourself how we can afford it.

Embassies. No idea but as we do own 8.5 % of the embassy network, I am sure some deal will be struck in the pre independence negotiations.

Tax collection. There already is a system in place for tax collection.

The EU argument has been done to death on here. Scotland will not for one day be outwith the EU. Most sensible people recognise this. It would be an administrative nightmare if it were the case. The EU would also lose it's largest source of oil and it's largest fishing grounds. In short...it isn't going to happen. Ask yourself if the EU were going to bar a country that has been in the EU for 40 years, why would they try and fast track a country like Ukraine into the fold. Even if it wasn't the case many countries exist quite happily outwith the EU. It's a bit of a shite argument when Westminster is guilty of not sending all the EU money to Scotland anyway. So at least we will get our fair share.

I am not quite sure where you got that 29% figure from but I have never seen anything as high as that. I think it is about 15%. In relation to economies the 29% figure is what the percentage of the rUK's economy will be dependent on financial services should Scotland leave. A source would be nice for the 29% figure. Standard and Poor's economic assessment for indy Scotland states that it has a diverse economy and it would probably lead to a better outlook if the odd financial institution left for London. In reality though, these firms operate in multiple countries all over the world. One more isn't going to prove to be a massive obstacle. It is also interesting to note that the financial institutions made the same noises in the run up to the 1997 referendum. They didn't leave then either.

We need more immigration as I understand it as we have a huge shortfall in skilled labour. The educated tend to bugger off as there are no real prospects in Scotland. If you are suggesting it is simple to train up your average joe to fill highly skilled positions then I am afraid you are in fantasy land. What intellectuals we have in Scotland we have to keep. Zero hour contracts are a product of greedy employers. Nothing to do with a skills gap. Unfortunately for some they are the only option.

Again the benefit cheats arguments has been done to death on here. If you think that anyone will receive benefit if they refuse a job in this day and age, again you live in a fantasy land. It does not happen.

[H_B]

The educated tend to bugger off as there are no real prospects in Scotland.

This is complete and utter garbage.

Why do people like you insist on talking Scotland down? It's pure self-loathing.

[Enigma]

This is complete and utter garbage.

Why do people like you insist on talking Scotland down? It's pure self-loathing.

I wouldn't say it's complete garbage, there are a good few people, mostly very intelligent guys, I was at school with that now live and work in London or in two or three cases the US. Brian is clearly talking garbage when he says there is no real prospects in Scotland, many do choose to look elsewhere though.

[I'm Brian]

Well my experience of intelligent people is that the majority of them tend to leave Scotland. What I meant was that there are far better prospects for them outwith Scotland for the top performing few. Poor choice of words.

[H_B]

I wouldn't say it's complete garbage, there are a good few people, mostly very intelligent guys, I was at school with that now live and work in London or in two or three cases the US

Uh huh. This is true of every place, everywhere.

There are a lot of smart Swedes that don't work in Sweden. It's a global economy.

It's just completely not true to say that the educated in Scotland leave here. I work in the IT sector, in Financial Services. Surprisingly enough, we have lots of people with those degree fings, and some of us can even spell our own names.

Obviously we have to get the actual programming done in London, as all of the educated programmers have left Scotland. Oh wait, we don't. Because they haven't.

[Enigma]

Uh huh. This is true of every place, everywhere.

There are a lot of smart Swedes that don't work in Sweden. It's a global economy.

It's just completely not true to say that the educated in Scotland leave here. I work in the IT sector, in Financial Services. Surprisingly enough, we have lots of people with those degree fings, and some of us can even spell our own names.

Obviously we have to get the actual programming done in London, as all of the educated programmers have left Scotland. Oh wait, we don't. Because they haven't.

Well at least you didn't come across as a complete dick in your reply...

[H_B]

Well at least you didn't come across as a complete dick in your reply...

I'm fed up with these negative people talking down Scotland.

How dare they.

[invergowrie arab]

I'm fed up with these negative people talking down Scotland.

How dare they.

Mr bairn is having to leave ......

[H_B]

Mr bairn is having to leave ......

Deported?

[Confidemus]

Well at least you didn't come across as a complete dick in your reply..

Tbf, I don't think there's an H_B reply in the history of the world wide web where he doesn't come across as a dick.

[Grizzly]

Uh huh. This is true of every place, everywhere.

There are a lot of smart Swedes that don't work in Sweden. It's a global economy.

It's just completely not true to say that the educated in Scotland leave here. I work in the IT sector, in Financial Services. Surprisingly enough, we have lots of people with those degree fings, and some of us can even spell our own names.

Obviously we have to get the actual programming done in London, as all of the educated programmers have left Scotland. Oh wait, we don't. Because they haven't.

It's got nothing to do with Scotland not having opportunities for smart people. It's just that bigger cities tend to* offer more opportunities for professional people and better salaries. Hence young professional Americans aspire to live and work in New York and young professionals who grow up in Falkirk or Stornoway tend to look for jobs in Glasgow and Edinburgh. It's not that Scotland lacks opportunities; it's just that its cities aren't as metropolistic and global as places further afield, and probably never will be, with or without independence.

*Not always

[Tubbs]

Lets take these one at a time shall we?

Currency Union:

10 reasons why the currency union is to Scotland’s and the rest of the UK’s mutual economic benefit. 1) The rest of the UK relies on open trade with Scotland

Scotland is the rest of the UK’s most important and second largest trading market. Billions of pounds of goods arrive from England alone every month creating / safeguarding hundreds of thousands of jobs in the rest of the UK that rely upon having access to the Scottish market. For Westminster to enforce a currency barrier would go against rUK’s economic interests.

2) Scotland’s balance of payments ensures the stability of the pound sterling

Scotland is a key market for exports within the UK. The trading surplus of oil and gas, whisky and manufacturing provide stability for the UK balance of payments. This maintains the worth of the currency in international markets. rUK requires Scotland’s membership of sterling to protect the currency.

3) Economic experts support a currency union

The independent Fiscal Commission Working Group of globally renowned economists produced a considerable report into the macroeconomics of an independent Scotland conclusively supporting a currency union.

4) The financial markets and institutions support a currency union

Oliver Harvey, strategist for Deutsche Bank, described a Scotland-rUK Sterling arrangement as an “optimal currency area”

Valentin Marinov, the head of European Group-of-10 currency strategy at Citigroup added: “the potential introduction of a currency union need not affect significantly trade and other flows.”

5) The Treasury followed market pressure on debt and they will do the same on currency

The UK Treasury recently confirmed that they will secure the repayment of all the UK’s current debts. This was as a result of queries from the financial markets. Similarly, there will be calls for the UK Government to make quickly clarify the currency position if Scotland becomes independent. All the common sense economic evidence favours a currency union.

6) Mervyn King: UK Treasury approach would be “entirely different” following Yes vote.

Former Bank of England Governor Mervyn King has said that the UK Treasury approach to agreeing a currency union will be entirely different following independence. As it stands, Westminster politicians are engaging in political posturing during the referendum debate. After the referendum is finished economic common sense will prevail. The former Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is well placed to understand this.

7) Professor Hughes-Hallet dismissed Westminster politicians for “political posturing”

In a recent interview with BBC Scotland, Professor Andrew Hughes-Hallett, an expert in economics and public policy at George Mason University in the US and a Professor at the University of St. Andrew’s, supported the currency union proposal.

He also said that: “The question is the running of it [the currency union], not the existence of it.” Westminster politicians, in his view, are engaging in “political posturing” while ignoring the economic evidence.

Westminster politicians will not rule out a currency union because it makes economic sense

Although Westminster politicians are negative and dismissive when it comes to cooperation after independence, all key representatives will not rule out a currency union. Shadow Chancellor Ed Balls recently said he would hold discussions on the issue. Chancellor George Osborne knows that after a Yes vote the situation would change rapidly and he would have to act in the best interests of business and trade in the rest of the UK which means supporting a currency union. And now we know all the technical work will be complete.

Edit: George Osborne’s attempt to claim Scotland couldn’t use the pound, quickly backfired when another UK minister briefed the Guardian by saying “Of course there will be a currency union”.

9) The Governor of the UK’s Central Bank is already discussing the technicalities

Mark Carney’s presentation in Edinburgh was a key step towards a currency union after independence. It laid out the benefits of maintaining a currency union and opened up further dialogue between the Scottish Government, the Fiscal Commission Working Group and the Central Bank. The challenges that were set out by the Governor will be taken seriously – and there is a substantial length of time until March 2016 (when Scotland would become independent) to establish working arrangements and institutions to address them.

10) Even Alistair Darling says that a currency union is “logical” & “desirable”

Alistair Darling, leading the No Campaign, understands that the politics before the referendum will be overtaken by the economic common sense that follows it.

On Newsnight Scotland he said “Of course it would be desirable to have a currency union…If you have independence or separation, of course the currency union is logical.”

Start up costs

No one knows this exact figure, but an oil pension fund and scrapping Trident will help offset, plus the costs will be nothing like the UK's Treasury's vastly overblown figure. Unless you think we're too wee and too poor?

Also:

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/new-figures-confirm-that-scotland-would-have-been-8-3-billion-better-off-an-independent-country/

No Longer Members of the EU?

http://www.scotreferendum.com/questions/how-will-scotland-become-an-independent-member-of-the-european-union/

How do we make up the shortfall inrevenue when the finacial sector (currently making up 29% of the economy) moves south?

What concrete proof do you have that the financial sector will move south?

http://www.businessforscotland.co.uk/scotlands-financial-sector-will-thrive-after-a-yes-vote/

Why would we need more immigration when so many Scots are unemployedor on zero hours contracts?

Who has said we "need" more immigration? For unemployment/ zero hours contracts, ask your chums at Westminster what they plan to do about that.

Why should we continue to allow so many to claim benefits because they refuse jobs they feel are beneath them?

Can you give me exact figures of people refusing jobs they feel are beneath them? How do you feel about the fact that fraudulently claimed beneftits comprise less than half the amount of the amount of benefits that are currently unclaimed?

This doesn't help anyone. You've been hoodwinked by the Daily Mail/ Tories that every person on benefits is a scrounger. It's manifestly untrue.

Now you may not like "indy" web links, but the above all contain facts. Real facts.

I GUARANTEE you, anything you come up with for staying within the Union, I can debunk or throw back at you as a myth or scaremongering.

Try actually reading into some facts instead of letting the MSM dictate your views.

So good we would be happy to lock in an agreement for say 20 or 30 years ?

[H_B]

It's got nothing to do with Scotland not having opportunities for smart people. It's just that bigger cities tend to* offer more opportunities for professional people and better salaries. Hence young professional Americans aspire to live and work in New York and young professionals who grow up in Falkirk or Stornoway tend to look for jobs in Glasgow and Edinburgh. It's not that Scotland lacks opportunities; it's just that its cities aren't as metropolistic and global as places further afield, and probably never will be, with or without independence.

*Not always

Correct. It has f**k all to do with Independence. It's to do with the global economy, the natural instinct of many to move further afield to gain experience of living and working somewhere else, and the natural increaes in opportunities in larger urban areas such as London, New York etc.

But the initial claim was and is complete and utter bollocks. It's good to see I'm Brian has rowed back from that idiocy.

It's also not about intelligence or "the top performing few". It's about what you want to do with your career and your life. Many of our very best graduates stay here. Tehre are plenty of opportunities in Scotland for anyone in any industry.

[MassiveFanDan]

If anyone's still unsure of what currency we'll use in an independent Scotland, it'll be the pound, just like it was before the union.

[joozy]

If it is a no vote, and the Tories and UKIP form a coalition at the next election, and I still cannot live in Scotland together with my family, then I would support civil unrest if it did indeed arise.

When my human right to a family life is threatened then I will have no choice but to defend my rights.

Well, you seem like a rational and in no way utterly mental individual......

[Mr Bairn]

As much as I find the "right to a family life" to be the most ridiculous of human right, let's get to the root of your post.

UKIP will win one seat at most, look at their success levels in by-elections where protest parties have their best chance, FPTP lets them down.

And they're not going to jump in to bed with the Tories, not after seeing what happened to the Libs. If they have a token MP he will probably just serve the same role as George Galloway, the angry man in the back row.

Given that the Lib Dems are going to get a hammering any hung parliament result is very unlikely. You're talking 90% chance that either of the main parties wins a majority

[Lex]

Sigh. That explains a lot. I've yet to meet an IT guy who wasn't an arrogant cock with a weird god complex.

Good IT people almost always go freelance in which case it rarely matter which country they end up in.

If you are a permanent IT employee maybe that's telling you a story.

BTW he was talking about people leaving the country who are smart, intelligent etc.

Are you seriously putting yourself in that category?

Yet another bizarre rant packed with personal abuse.