The Arbroath Thread

[SimonLichtie]

One thing no-one who has been demanding McIntyre out for weeks has actually properly answered is what happens next season? If we change manager at any point between now and the summer, the summer becomes a hugely difficult window for them with players being lined up by clubs/ managers over the past few months and a new man basically being months behind other clubs.  The fans would absolutely have to give this man time to get things right. My expectations under McIntyre next season would be anything othe than top 4 is unacceptable. Under a new manager I'd simply be looking at a mid table finish and beginning to build their own team.

What if we're in the bottom half of the table after 9 games next year? Do we just bin another manager, get someone else in, bin them off if we don't improve and we basically have a revolving door on the managers office?

[1320Lichtie]

15 minutes ago, SimonLichtie said:

One thing no-one who has been demanding McIntyre out for weeks has actually properly answered is what happens next season? If we change manager at any point between now and the summer, the summer becomes a hugely difficult window for them with players being lined up by clubs/ managers over the past few months and a new man basically being months behind other clubs.  The fans would absolutely have to give this man time to get things right. My expectations under McIntyre next season would be anything othe than top 4 is unacceptable. Under a new manager I'd simply be looking at a mid table finish and beginning to build their own team.

What if we're in the bottom half of the table after 9 games next year? Do we just bin another manager, get someone else in, bin them off if we don't improve and we basically have a revolving door on the managers office?

I agree and that’s why I had my doubts over it - but I feel like with someone else we’d have a far better chance of keeping the players at the club we want to keep at the club. Also heard that there may be difficulty for McIntyre getting players into the club because he’s not very well liked in Scotland, never thought too much of it but I think it kind of feels like it is that way with a lot of players here at the moment.

 

I would rather chance it if it means the small possibility of keeping the likes of McKenna here. If McIntyre is here he’s off and I think there are a few players in that boat
 

And no I certainly wouldn’t be shouting for anyone’s head - I agree it’s a season that I would expect to just be a recovery season to regroup if a new manager come in 

 

 

[farflung lichtie]

8 hours ago, RedLichtie86 said:

McIntyre came in under difficult circumtances. A team out of form, lacking quality everywhere and team cohesion and consistency fucked. He faced 5 games in 4 weeks before the transfer window opened to improve things. ….The squad is still largely the one he came into. One that has suffered from getting older, dropped in form, injuries and an overall a lack of quality to play in this division....

Bringing in a new manager for the summer just papers over the cracks. They will still face the same issues McIntyre will face if he is still in charge. They could do better, they could do worse. Again its another risk to take.

And who knows. McIntyre might do well having a squad he has built upon, regropued and trained without the pressure of facing stronger sides each week..

Thanks for this sensible post, all valid points.   In particular, I cannot accept the view that you somehow changing managers almost as often as bedlinen itself offers a solution.  It doesn’t work for big clubs and certainly won’t for the likes of Arbroath,   Fans are entitled to their opinions and I understand the frustration but many of the rants on here echo the negative shouts from the terraces during games…as if you merely had to press a button.    I recall our last 2-3 home defeat when ICT had big-name Duncan Ferguson come in newly appointed. That bounce didn’t last long and stats across all leagues seem to confirm it barely exists as a thing.

Yes things can improve but it almost seems a lottery.(or risk). There’s some basis to the argument that if you do change, this is the time to do it but I am also not convinced it would just be change for the sake of it (read - can recruit better).  It’s been a rather drawn out end-of-an-era which is always a bit painful but Lichties with longer experience are well used to it.   Personally, I’d be in favour of moderating expectations a little and enjoying the trip without going overboard on the angst.

Against the odds, I’m hoping we might pick up a few more points before the end of this season, then enjoying a bracing spell in the seaside league (hopefully only the top one but care needed).  For me, ‘a change is as good as a rest’ applies more to the inevitable squad turnover (around a proven core), a different environment - both exploiting other gains such as financial we have established - but not necessarily a change of manager.

Edited April 4 by farflung lichtie

[relichtie]

Sometimes a manager and club just don't work out. Take Clough  at Leeds. The board at Leeds quickly worked out that "it wasn't working" and a change was needed. If as stated above 80-90% of the supporters are unhappy with JMac then the board needs to recognise this. I fear that things will get worse in these last few games and the crowds will continue to dwindle. Season ticket holders have already "paid their entry fees" for this season,  but will a lot of them renew for next season. 

[Anotherlichtie]

27 minutes ago, farflung lichtie said:

Thanks for this sensible post, all valid points.   In particular, I cannot accept the view that you somehow changing managers almost as often as bedlinen itself offers a solution.  It doesn’t work for big clubs and certainly won’t for the likes of Arbroath,   Fans are entitled to their opinions and I understand the frustration but many of the rants on here echo the negative shouts from the terraces during games…as if you merely had to press a button.    I recall our last 2-3 home defeat when ICT had big-name Duncan Ferguson come in newly appointed. That bounce didn’t last long and stats across all leagues seem to confirm it barely exists as a thing.

Yes things can improve but it almost seems a lottery.(or risk). There’s some basis to the argument that if you do change, this is the time to do it but I am also not convinced it would just be change for the sake of it (read - can recruit better).  It’s been a rather drawn out end-of-an-era which is always a bit painful but Lichties with longer experience are well used to it.   Personally, I’d be in favour of moderating expectations a little and enjoying the trip without going overboard on the angst.

Against the odds, I’m hoping we might pick up a few more points before the end of this season, then enjoying a bracing spell in the seaside league (hopefully only the top one but care needed).  For me, ‘a change is as good as a rest’ applies more to the inevitable squad turnover (around a proven core), a different environment - both exploiting other gains such as financial we have established - but not necessarily a change of manager.

 

[Anotherlichtie]

Just now, relichtie said:

Sometimes a manager and club just don't work out. Take Clough  at Leeds. The board at Leeds quickly worked out that "it wasn't working" and a change was needed. If as stated above 80-90% of the supporters are unhappy with JMac then the board needs to recognise this. I fear that things will get worse in these last few games and the crowds will continue to dwindle. Season ticket holders have already "paid their entry fees" for this season,  but will a lot of them renew for next season. 

Are you actually comparing Jim McIntyre with Brian Clough? 
There are some wild takes on this thread and this is up there 

[relichtie]

7 minutes ago, Anotherlichtie said:

Are you actually comparing Jim McIntyre with Brian Clough? 
There are some wild takes on this thread and this is up there 

Not at all . Just saying a new manager  sometimes just doesn't work out . 

[lichtiemike]

I don’t think stability is a good enough reason to stick with what we’ve got, we are likely to waste half a season next season if we don’t make a change, this is based on the evidence of 2024 performances.

I am fully aware of the circumstances inherited but I just cannot accept every opposition corner being a genuine goal scoring opportunity for the opposition, defensively we are as bad as I can remember, and not improving at all.

Queen’s Park away is up there with the worst I’ve ever seen from us.

Needing to score 3 or 4 goals just to stand a chance of getting anything out of a match simply isn’t acceptable. 

[lichtiekev]

Personally didn't want McIntyre as manager, but gave him the chance, he come in and we had a wee upturn and things looked a little brighter. then no doubt he has had absolute awful luck and that was taken into account. But since then he has made the decision easy, 

From the signings, the line ups, the tactics and most Importantly the absolutely massive lack of connection with fans and now looking like the players too makes it clear he can't be trusted to take us forward, 

I don't think anyone is expecting us to go down and win the league or be world beaters, just be good go have a feel good factor back at club and give the fans something to be positive about when going to games, I personally think the current management team cant offer that 

Edited April 4 by lichtiekev

[Lichtie78]

Few people have mentioned that Dick should’ve stepped away after the 21/22 season, and whilst with the huge benefit of hindsight that probably would’ve been right, any manager in the world would’ve wanted another crack at it after the success of that season.

[ExiledLichtie]

If we think back to the last time we were relegated from div 1, for stability reasons we stuck with John Brownlie.  Then for stability reasons we gave the job to his assistant Steve Kirk.  I'm not sure continuity is quite the benefit some people think it is.

[Lichtielegend]

35 minutes ago, Lichtie78 said:

Few people have mentioned that Dick should’ve stepped away after the 21/22 season, and whilst with the huge benefit of hindsight that probably would’ve been right, any manager in the world would’ve wanted another crack at it after the success of that season.

Of course it's with hindsight. There aren't many managers who call it quits at the right time. It's somewhat ironic that perhaps the only 2 Scottish managers who did time it right were people close to Dick Campbell (Sir Alex and Walter Smith)

 

[1320Lichtie]

1 hour ago, lichtiekev said:

 

I don't think anyone is expecting us to go down and win the league or be world beaters, just be good go have a feel good factor back at club and give the fans something to be positive about when going to games, I personally think the current management team can offer that 

This is just it - that’s all I want. We have absolutely had our time in the sun and I can guarantee you no other part time club will come anywhere close to doing what we did we were absolutely spoilt rotten.
 

The past 5 year has also pushed the club forward massively off the park with the improvements to Gayfield and produced a whole new generation of supporters that should see us in good stead going forward for many many years. 

 

There aren’t any massive expectations within the support going forward - people just want to enjoy their Saturday afternoons again. And I think it is now pretty obvious that Jim isn’t going to be the guy to get any feel good factor back in and around the club and the guy to try and build a connection between the fans and the team again. 

Edited April 4 by 1320Lichtie

[Housecaptain]

Don't think McIntyre will be able connect to the fans considering he apparently did not go into the hospitality 2 weeks ago either before or after the game. 

As connecting with the players I think the answer is staring us in the face after the latest team selections and results. Will be amazed if Mckenna signs another contract, same applies to Stewart although he may be persuaded by Boyle who I think is a friend of his father. 

[Lichtielegend]

29 minutes ago, ExiledLichtie said:

If we think back to the last time we were relegated from div 1, for stability reasons we stuck with John Brownlie.  Then for stability reasons we gave the job to his assistant Steve Kirk.  I'm not sure continuity is quite the benefit some people think it is.

Brownlie's first season in the then First Division doesn't get near enough credit. I don't think a part time team survived in that division in the 5 years prior or the 10 years after we did it. 

 

I'm not sure the issue is being relegated, more the manner of it. We ended up going down with a whimper under Brownlie and the malaise continued the following season. We're going down with a whimper this year and continuity is not the way to address it.

If we looked at clubs relegated from the Championship over the last 20 years with less than, say, 25 points and looked at their performance in League One the following season, I reckon more clubs would have got relegated again rather than bounce back up. One for @SimonLichtie to compile.

[AFC360PUNK1320]

12 hours ago, RedLichtie86 said:

Last night was our last chance to stay in this division. But we failed to get the win we needed. As much as many want us to be competitive every week and winning games, the fact of the matter is the squad that is available is no longer cut out for this division.

McIntyre came in under difficult circumtances. A team out of form, lacking quality everywhere and team cohesion and consistency fucked. He faced 5 games in 4 weeks before the transfer window opened to improve things. He got us playing well with what we had with The initial bounce teams can get with a new manager.

Rather that going into the transfer window with a somewhat settled squad, having had time to evaluate the players and seek out new ones he was faced with an injury crisis no one at the club has ever seen. The main aim was to get players in to put a team together and fast. How many players did we have that were fully fit? How many playing with injuries that could get worse? We had 14 "fit" players left when we faced Dundee United on the 2nd January after Murray came in. Then 15 "fit" players when Walker came in against Partick on the 6th.

We were in a dire situation with sometimes only 8 or so players training during the week. Doubts on players fitness lasting a full 90 minutes and scared to death of more injuries. Fans on here were begging for more players. We needed players in and it couldnt wait. It McIntyre had waited until after the Ayr game on the 13th to bring players in fans would lose their shit. Facebook, twitter, on here, all were pleading for more players. That ment taking risks on players such as Murray, Walker, Robinson, MacKinnon etc. McIntyre was not afforded the luxury of time to identify the right players that the club needed. Even if he did, trying to fix 2 years of failed transfer windows was a long shot at best.

The squad is still largely the one he came into. One that has suffered from getting older, dropped in form, injuries and an overall a lack of quality to play in this division.

Last night in the first half we did look threating down the right but nothing down the left. Walker made 4 or 5 intercepts to stop certain chances with others defending desperately. MacKinnon and Gold did a great job in the middle tracking back. The penalty situation was farcical. If McKenna believed he was the taker he should have refused to let McIntosh take it. Little should have been a captain and decided. Whether McIntyre had expressed it clearly to all that McIntosh was to be the taker last night is unclear. But regardless on the pitch the captain should be making that decision. That situation made the miss far more damaging to our morale.

We go into the 2nd half flat. Team demoralised and the performance dropped. 0-0 and fans wanting 2 up top and to have a go. McIntrye changed the formation with the subs, MacKinnon and McKenna off for Slater and Bird, Dow dropping behind the 2 up top and sacrificing the left wing with Gold now expected to push out to if needed as more attacking focus went down the right. It was a gamble that didnt work. We lost a goal at the corner so JMc turns to the bench.....

We needed to win and on the bench what else was left to turn the game around..... Stowe, Turan, Jacobs, Murray, Robinson. Players that are not good enough at this level. Yes 2 were JMc players but as stated earlier they were signed under pure desperation not thorough planning. Chucks on Stowe and Robinson for Dow and McIntosh as fresh legs might make a difference but alas no chance. Players not good enough and it showed.

Its very easy to blame McIntyre for all our failures. But fans surely have to accept that the squad we have is not good enough for the Championship. That is something that was evident last season and it carried over to this season.

I get that McIntyre has had some horrid results. But trying to get the best out of these players to be consistently good like the team 2 years ago was never going to happen. He seemed to steady the ship when he came in but the amount of injuries, the bad run of results, dropping late points (2 v Dunfermline - Bird/Hylton fight, 1 v Raith - 97th min goal, 2 v Ayr -Stowe not getting a pen) and overall lack of quality in the squad has been our downfall.

Bringing in a new manager for the summer just papers over the cracks. They will still face the same issues McIntyre will face if he is still in charge. They could do better, they could do worse. Again its another risk to take.

The summer gives everyone a chance to look forward to a new season. One where we will not be seen as the relegation candidate but one that will be competitive. If we manage to get Gaston, Stewart and McKenna signed for next season alongside the other 7 players plus fresh faces in we will be back at Gayfield enjoying watching us win again.

And who knows. McIntyre might do well having a squad he has built upon, regropued and trained without the pressure of facing stronger sides each week........ or he could be out in a few months and Bobby Linn rocks up.

TLDR...... I understand.

Decent post and agree with a lot of what you have said......but......it is plain to see to all the supporters it is simply not working and that happens in work places around the world that a person is not suited to a new job/workplace and the poster who said about Brian Clough and Leeds United was spot on (he was not comparing Brian Clough and Jim McIntyre) it was a case it was not a "good fit" with Clough/Leeds United/the established players at Leeds United and i get the feeling that is the same situation with Jim McIntyre and the Red Lichties.

Football clubs (more so at our level) it is vital that Management/Board of Directors/Players interact with the fans and this has happened since the Sir Albert Henderson days (although to be fair some Managers/Board better than others) McGrain/Baikie/Sheerin/McGlashan/Campbell (for 90% of the time) were really good at it and some others not and just wanted to jump into their car after the game and get home.

I had also heard that McIntyre does not go to the Hospitality to speak to the fans or go back the the Boardroom which is a poor show imo.

You can see from the sidelines and his pre and post match interviews that there is no "enthusiasm" and i have heard that is the same in the dressing room so how can the players get fired up.

You can see from the body language from our established players there is something not right and i repeat our club need the likes of Gaston, Ricky (but i fully understand if he wants a club nearer his home after his loyalty to us), McKenna, Hammy, Dow and Stewart etc to stay with TOB and Slater and the others under contract and that is a great foundation to build on for next season, if not and they all leave then it will be much harder with a brand new squad and i have no doubt the likes of TOB will ask away.

Over the last 6 or so seasons Arbroath Football Club has been built on being a family club and "togetherness" which has been great to see and for the town and we need to keep it that way as if the players are happy at the club then that transfers onto the pitch.

[1320Lichtie]

20 minutes ago, AFC360PUNK1320 said:

Decent post and agree with a lot of what you have said......but......it is plain to see to all the supporters it is simply not working and that happens in work places around the world that a person is not suited to a new job/workplace and the poster who said about Brian Clough and Leeds United was spot on (he was not comparing Brian Clough and Jim McIntyre) it was a case it was not a "good fit" with Clough/Leeds United/the established players at Leeds United and i get the feeling that is the same situation with Jim McIntyre and the Red Lichties.

Football clubs (more so at our level) it is vital that Management/Board of Directors/Players interact with the fans and this has happened since the Sir Albert Henderson days (although to be fair some Managers/Board better than others) McGrain/Baikie/Sheerin/McGlashan/Campbell (for 90% of the time) were really good at it and some others not and just wanted to jump into their car after the game and get home.

I had also heard that McIntyre does not go to the Hospitality to speak to the fans or go back the the Boardroom which is a poor show imo.

You can see from the sidelines and his pre and post match interviews that there is no "enthusiasm" and i have heard that is the same in the dressing room so how can the players get fired up.

You can see from the body language from our established players there is something not right and i repeat our club need the likes of Gaston, Ricky (but i fully understand if he wants a club nearer his home after his loyalty to us), McKenna, Hammy, Dow and Stewart etc to stay with TOB and Slater and the others under contract and that is a great foundation to build on for next season, if not and they all leave then it will be much harder with a brand new squad and i have no doubt the likes of TOB will ask away.

Over the last 6 or so seasons Arbroath Football Club has been built on being a family club and "togetherness" which has been great to see and for the town and we need to keep it that way as if the players are happy at the club then that transfers onto the pitch.

Absolutely - and on Hammy - 99 percent sure he will be at EF next season I have heard that the same way I heard that Steele had signed for us last summer so pretty confident that’s happened. Will be a good signing for them and a big miss here, probably more for his personality and influence rather than anything else

[HoBNob]

Just wanted to post to say how helpful your club staff have been prior, and after the game on Saturday.

Me and the wife were up at Dundee Science Centre and had been floating the idea about going to the game together and taking the little guy (he's only 17 month's), we used to go to games together quite allot but it's not been an option since he came around. However he's toddling about now, and with it being terracing I thought that would be better, we said we'd wait until we seen the weather though, and if it wasn't good then my wife would go with the wee guy to the soft play just along the road. 

With the weather being nice though we gave the ticket office a call asking if it was possible to take a pram on the terracing (We thought it would be a much smaller Pars support and I anticipated having loads of space up the back!) the women couldn't have been more helpful and we took him into the game, there was still plenty space up the back and there was another pram aswell. 

We got into the game a bit late though and didn't get a programme, I sent an email more in hope than expectation, however the club got back to me, sourced a programme and after paying for it over the phone it's now on it's way. 

From the ticket office staff, to the stewards, to whoever has been answering my emails, everyone's been a delight. Really gave a fantastic impression. Can only hope more success is around the corner for you guys and gals. 

[Anotherlichtie]

16 minutes ago, HoBNob said:

Just wanted to post to say how helpful your club staff have been prior, and after the game on Saturday.

Me and the wife were up at Dundee Science Centre and had been floating the idea about going to the game together and taking the little guy (he's only 17 month's), we used to go to games together quite allot but it's not been an option since he came around. However he's toddling about now, and with it being terracing I thought that would be better, we said we'd wait until we seen the weather though, and if it wasn't good then my wife would go with the wee guy to the soft play just along the road. 

With the weather being nice though we gave the ticket office a call asking if it was possible to take a pram on the terracing (We thought it would be a much smaller Pars support and I anticipated having loads of space up the back!) the women couldn't have been more helpful and we took him into the game, there was still plenty space up the back and there was another pram aswell. 

We got into the game a bit late though and didn't get a programme, I sent an email more in hope than expectation, however the club got back to me, sourced a programme and after paying for it over the phone it's now on it's way. 

From the ticket office staff, to the stewards, to whoever has been answering my emails, everyone's been a delight. Really gave a fantastic impression. Can only hope more success is around the corner for you guys and gals. 

Thats nice to hear. Good to see there are still some good people involved with the club. 
 

Disappointed to see the “Social Media Manager” is still involved after his blatant lies about the support. If I’m honest and I had a choice between him and the manager leaving the club I would pick him.

[glasgowlichtie23]

3 hours ago, Anotherlichtie said:

 

Disappointed to see the “Social Media Manager” is still involved after his blatant lies about the support. If I’m honest and I had a choice between him and the manager leaving the club I would pick him.

Not sure who’s worse him or DC lying about being spat on at spartans