All things Dundee FC

[harry94]

I would say about McGowan that I was among many who were calling for him to be dropped before we played Hearts earlier in the season and got my wish yet he entered the game at 2-0 down and played a big part in bringing us back into things.

He's very technically limited but the intensity that he is capable of playing at is very important to us. I'd hope we could get better but I'd say he'd be appreciated in any squad in a shitfest right now.

[harry94]

2 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Spot on dd23

In the interview McGowan talked about the way they train, passing the ball, looking for a pass etc.  Sounds like a back handed way of him trying to say Hartely's not to blame.  

Hartley realised early in the season that we simply don't have the players to be a pass and move type team that have any real threat in front of goal, despite the fact they are all players Hartley has brought in.  Either that or the players were not being trained PROPERLY to do this.

We have been a big punt up the park type team for a large part of this season, with a fair degree of success with the arrival of Haber.  

IF the training concentrated on passing and looking for a pass as seems to be the case by the way McGowan is highlighting this part of the training then why did the players resort to the big punt up the park and far more worrying than that why did Hartley not appear to do more to change that?

I actually thought that they were trying to play it about on Friday but just kept getting caught out. If you watched our players when they had space at the back or at set piece opportunities, they looked terrified to punt the ball first time and looked for the pass. The problem was though, they tended to play themselves back further due to Aberdeen's high pressing and then eventually, Kerr or Holt would get a shitty two yard pass at an awkward angle and be forced to hoof a shite ball forward into more danger.

We need some sort of defensive midfield to assert themselves as an outlet and battle but we only have McGowan and he's not particularly good at that either (against Aberdeen with Jack and Shinnie; it's no match). Hateley seems to have aged atrociously and has no engine at all. Vincent has never played in that role before and is wasted. Other teams generally seem to have a couple of players in their squad at least capable of playing that sort of position and we have 1 at a push.

People tend to get all uppity and cite Barcelona as small players to prove it's not necessary to have a physical presence in the middle of the park but what they forget is that they literally have one of the best physical midfielders in the world, Sergio Busquets. If we can't ever assert control over games, we can't bring these nice footballers into the game.

[Shadow Play]

5 minutes ago, harry94 said:

I actually thought that they were trying to play it about on Friday but just kept getting caught out. If you watched our players when they had space at the back or at set piece opportunities, they looked terrified to punt the ball first time and looked for the pass. The problem was though, they tended to play themselves back further due to Aberdeen's high pressing and then eventually, Kerr or Holt would get a shitty two yard pass at an awkward angle and be forced to hoof a shite ball forward into more danger.

We need some sort of defensive midfield to assert themselves as an outlet and battle but we only have McGowan and he's not particularly good at that either (against Aberdeen with Jack and Shinnie; it's no match). Hateley seems to have aged atrociously and has no engine at all. Vincent has never played in that role before and is wasted. Other teams generally seem to have a couple of players in their squad at least capable of playing that sort of position and we have 1 at a push.

People tend to get all uppity and cite Barcelona as small players to prove it's not necessary to have a physical presence in the middle of the park but what they forget is that they literally have one of the best physical midfielders in the world, Sergio Busquets. If we can't ever assert control over games, we can't bring these nice footballers into the game.

The trouble is you can't spend the entire season since Haber has arrived punting the long ball at every opportunity (no matter how poor the opposition), then practice a passing game in training for a week or two and expect the players to perform against the second best team in the country.  We were knocked out of the League Cup by lower league opposition trying the passing game at the start of the season and we were in danger of being marooned at the bottom of the table when we tried it at the start of the season.  Why did Hartley think the players could try it again with any sort of confidence or success?  What happened was exactly what you described.  Players not confident in their own ability panicking and looking for the easy backwards or side pass

 

 

[Dee Bliss]

1 hour ago, dd23 said:

Precisely. He has been just as shite as the rest.

Agreed and someone had to say it. 

[Dee Man]

1 hour ago, G_Man1985 said:

I'm sure I read somewhere that when it comes to possession we are bottom of the pile in the league.
When it comes to McGowan I'd like to see him on the bench then come off it and run about like a headless chicken. He has been poor for the majority of the season, in saying that so have the majority of the team.
 

Derek Rae said in his commentary on Friday night that we're bottom of the possession league. That would be fine if we were a renowned counter-attacking team who can survive wave after wave of relentless pressure before breaking at pace on the opposition's exposed defence and unleashing our deadly strike force; we're not though, our playing style defies definition. Except fucking shite maybe.

[Dee Bliss]

1 minute ago, G_Man1985 said:

 

Why? Your not telling me they don't already know this. Getting beat 7-0 at home kinda suggests how good they are.
If anyone should of said it should of been the chairman as we know fine well the manager wouldn't.
Let the chairman tell the media the players are playing for there jobs. As rightly so as they are playing shite right now.

 

Personally, Gowser's done Hartley's job for him. He's the 1 who should've been out facing up to the media saying the same things, instead it was left to Gowser who didn't miss himself out in all this. 

 

Also without a doubt there will be players in that dressing room who think they're above any criticism and don't see themselves as part of Gowser's comments. Do you think Scott Bain see's himself as part of the problem?

[Dee Bliss]

49 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

Why can't they adapt to it? Because they are not good enough clearly.

Need to get there finger out and in the summer let the clearance begin

They can't adapt because Hartley plays that many people out of position. 5 central midfielders started on Friday with no naturally wide players and a centre forward who didn't have a clue how to play the lone striker role. 

 

Hartley's summer transfer window was horrendous. Chased El Bahktoui all summer who's not good enough, then to compound matters chased Hateley for months afterwards. 

 

We're going backwards. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yenitit

[Dee Bliss]

20 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

 

He doesn't care and hasnt done for a long time since he wants to leave anyway but for any keeper to let in 7. That's a pretty good achievement.

If I was kerr for example i wouldn't be happy with them comments especially from gowser because I think he has had a decent season.

 

I think your spot on about Kerr. You could also add O'Dea, Vincent and O'Hara. Are the last 2 players I mentioned good enough though?

As for the rest he's spot on. Bain and Gomis are examples of players who look like they couldn't give a f**k. Hateley is an example of someone who goes hiding when we're in possession of the ball. He'll stand waving his arms about like he wants the ball but he's usually in a position where the player can't find him with the ball or in a position where he'd be under so much pressure you wouldn't give him the ball. He particularly boils meh p!ss with his lack of closing down. Time and again a Dundee player will run by him to go and close someone down, usually Gowser or Vincent. 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Yenitit

[Dee Bliss]

7 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

 

Of course they can adapt there professionals or meant to be certainly. Tierney for Scotland at right back for example had to adapt and did it perfectly. You telling me he was getting trained to play right back by Celtic?

These players have been playing in different positions all season and had plenty time to adapt. There just clearly shite right now.

This summer coming if we stay in the Spl will hopefully be big changes made

 

It's not a case of because you're a professional you can play anywhere. Hartley's hanging players out to dry by asking them to play out of position. 

 

Of course certain types of players can adapt. Wingers can play on either side of the park just like fullbacks but central players very, very rarely can play out wide effectively just the same as when wide players are being asked to play inside. 

 

 

[Ludo*1]

It's clear to see we have a fragmented dressing room with several cliques. Bain, Loy, Thomson, Hemmings, Stewart and Ross being the original clique. You only have to look at GGH's brothers comments on Twitter when Thomson was released.

Bain is the only one featuring these days and I've heard (Although could be absolute pish) that there's a few in the squad that don't particularly like him.

McGowan ripping the squad a new one along with O'Dea regularly apologising to the fans at FT after games suggest that they think there's a few that simple don't care.

Gomis for example, clearly doesn't give a f**k. I don't think it's intentional from him, that's just his make up and it's why he goes from looking like an obvious quality CH to a player that shouldn't be near a football pitch.

The only ones that look like they give a shit are Cammy, O'Dea, Gadz, McGowan and Haber. That's it. There's a few more that probably care but don't show a sign of it and need to buck up their ideas.

We have a poor squad and if we survive this season, Hartley is gonna have a massive rebuild job on his hands.

Hartley clearly knows that as in his interview about Bain wanting to leave - He said that in the summer he's gonna need to look at strengthening every single department.

I think Hartley's comments about Bain midweek were intended to put a rocket up him and 'punish' him for his attitude. It clearly backfired.

[Fifespud]

Derek Rae said in his commentary on Friday night that we're bottom of the possession league. That would be fine if we were a renowned counter-attacking team who can survive wave after wave of relentless pressure before breaking at pace on the opposition's exposed defence and unleashing our deadly strike force; we're not though, our playing style defies definition. Except fucking shite maybe.

'Our playing style defies definition ' - brilliant quote - I'm going to steal that if that's ok bro?

[Dee Man]

1 minute ago, Fifespud said:

 

'Our playing style defies definition ' - brilliant quote - I'm going to steal that if that's ok bro?

 

It's all yours. I need it back a week on Saturday though.

[Shadow Play]

49 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

.......Hartley clearly knows that as in his interview about Bain wanting to leave - He said that in the summer he's gonna need to look at strengthening every single department.

I think Hartley's comments about Bain midweek were intended to put a rocket up him and 'punish' him for his attitude. It clearly backfired.

We've had worse teams and squads in recent history but I doubt we've had a manager that has been backed so much both financially and in the press by the board in recent history.  Regardless of the quality of the recent squad I think it's fair to say I'm struggling to think of a more unbalanced squad in recent history.  The fact that Hartley is saying he needs to strengthen in every department is a definite sign that his signings in every department have been poor and not just in the last summer transfer window either.

If Hartley's comments about Bain did backfire is that not another indication of him not knowing how to get the best out of his players and how best to motivate them?

His confidence when things were going well is being showed up as nothing more than arrogance.  He's out his depth and there is no way he should be allowed anymore money to bring in players he thinks are good enough.  It will no doubt cost a small fortune to get rid of some of the players he has brought in already.

 

 

 

[Caballero]

We have 8 games left, 7 are against the bottom 6. I reckon another 7pts minimum would keep us up..

Draw against Cty

Beat Hamilton at Dens

Beat ICT in next fixture

 

Looks simple eh

[RossDee01]

The good thing is we'll have 3 home games and only 2 away games after the split. I think we'll be safe but this shambles better get sorted in the sunmer

 

Killie/Thistle - Away

Hamilton - Away

County - Home

ICT - Home

Motherwell -Home

[dundeefc1783]

We have a poor squad and if we survive this season, Hartley is gonna have a massive rebuild job on his hands.

Hartley should be rebuilding nothing in the summer. It's his supposed "eye for a player" that has put us in this mess in the first place. He appears to have no idea how to build a balanced squad and I wouldn't trust him with another penny.

He's got until the end of the season and regardless where we finish he should be gone. He is sucking the life out the club and in the last 18months has pretty much undone all the good work he did in the first 18 months of his tenure.

[Caballero]

31 minutes ago, RossDee01 said:

The good thing is we'll have 3 home games and only 2 away games after the split. I think we'll be safe but this shambles better get sorted in the sunmer

 

Killie/Thistle - Away

Hamilton - Away

County - Home

ICT - Home

Motherwell -Home

Im not sure sure about that. Without being a fixture statto or checking, I think that might give us 20 home games.

[RossDee01]

Im not sure sure about that. Without being a fixture statto or checking, I think that might give us 20 home games.

Hmm not sure then. Can't imagine the club being very happy if a team finishes 1 point above us, therefore relegating us when we've had to play them away from home 3 times and at home only once.

Ill be fucking seething anyway.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

1 hour ago, dundeefc1783 said:

 

Hartley should be rebuilding nothing in the summer. It's his supposed "eye for a player" that has put us in this mess in the first place. He appears to have no idea how to build a balanced squad and I wouldn't trust him with another penny.

He's got until the end of the season and regardless where we finish he should be gone. He is sucking the life out the club and in the last 18months has pretty much undone all the good work he did in the first 18 months of his tenure.

 

Well said, that's it in a nutshell, personally, I've had enough of him, and I couldn't stomach another relegation.*

*we're up and down more often than Lorrainne Kellys pants, in the baldy snakes sex dungeon. Thank you.

Edited April 2, 2017 by Bigmouth Strikes Again

[Ludo*1]

He's made an absolute arse of this season, no doubts and signings have been atrocious. After Aberdeen, he can have no complaints if he's sacked.

In general though - I think he's been very good in the transfer market and up until this season - even if his signings didn't work out I was able to understand his thought process in signing the players he signed. His eye for a player is his strength and I've a nagging feeling that a lot of the criticisms levelled at him are the fault of Nelms rather than Hartley. For example, I don't think Hartley has much input on the length of deals nor the type. Sounds crazy I know but Hartley proclaimed not to know about Hemmings release clause and was adamant there wasn't one. When Hemmings was sold, Nelms came out and said don't blame Hartley as it was me that negotiated that clause in his deal.

I put it to you as this - what if Hartley built his summer squad on the thought process that only one of Hemmings and Stewart was leaving - not both? He'd be naive in the extreme but Nelms and Hartley have both said, Hartley only gives Nelms a list of players he wants and everything else is the responsibility of the board. He only deals with the footballing side of things.