All things Dundee FC

[Dee Man]

23 minutes ago, Ludo*1 said:

He's made an absolute arse of this season, no doubts and signings have been atrocious. After Aberdeen, he can have no complaints if he's sacked.

In general though - I think he's been very good in the transfer market and up until this season - even if his signings didn't work out I was able to understand his thought process in signing the players he signed. His eye for a player is his strength and I've a nagging feeling that a lot of the criticisms levelled at him are the fault of Nelms rather than Hartley. For example, I don't think Hartley has much input on the length of deals nor the type. Sounds crazy I know but Hartley proclaimed not to know about Hemmings release clause and was adamant there wasn't one. When Hemmings was sold, Nelms came out and said don't blame Hartley as it was me that negotiated that clause in his deal.

I put it to you as this - what if Hartley built his summer squad on the thought process that only one of Hemmings and Stewart was leaving - not both? He'd be naive in the extreme but Nelms and Hartley have both said, Hartley only gives Nelms a list of players he wants and everything else is the responsibility of the board. He only deals with the footballing side of things.

I'm not sure about his eye for a player. I'd say his success rate in signings is about 20%. It's pretty hard to measure but from the amount of players that have come and gone, how many would you have back and how many would you be bothered about if they were punted tomorrow?

[Shadow Play]

Surely Hartley must have some sort of say in the the contract, if only the length of it.  

It can't possibly be the case that Hartley sees a player he thinks has potential eg Jordi and the board unilaterally hands out a 3, 4 or 5 year deal.  There must be some sort of discussion about how important Hartley thinks the player will be and how confident he is in the player.   

 

[Ludo*1]

Surely Hartley must have some sort of say in the the contract, if only the length of it.  
It can't possibly be the case that Hartley sees a player he thinks has potential eg Jordi and the board unilaterally hands out a 3, 4 or 5 year deal.  There must be some sort of discussion about how important Hartley thinks the player will be and how confident he is in the player.   
 

Absolutely! I reckon he'll have a list, state how important to the squad the player will be, and how long he'd like him for.

The actual discussion will ultimately be between players agent and Nelms though. If Nelms can get a player on a 3 year deal rather than a 2 year deal for a couple of hundred less I'd imagine he'll go for it.

[Ludo*1]

How much has Hartley spent on players ? Someone said financially Hartley has been backed

He spent quite a bit (but less than 100k) on Holt. He also paid for Scott Bain for what was rumoured to be between 15 and 50k.

I think that's it unless I'm forgetting someone. Obviously wages too, but I disagree with that point of view as it was Hartley that enabled us to tap into a much larger cash resource than previous due to promotion.

[dundeefc1783]

This eye for a player is an absolute myth. What player has he signed from virtual obscurity and turned into a success?

I would say Scott Bain and Greg Stewart are the only ones.

[Fifespud]

This eye for a player is an absolute myth. What player has he signed from virtual obscurity and turned into a success?

I would say Scott Bain and Greg Stewart are the only ones.

Totally agree. And another thing - despite what was said on his arrival - the squad is not fit enough imo.

It gets to midday and the vast majority f**k off back to Glasgow. I'll bet you the Aberdeen lads all live near the city.

Bombscare centre halves, midget shite the bed midfielders, ageing strikers, wingers with psychological problems, injury prone crocks, lads with no English whatsoever, unfit, disorganised and unbalanced. The man's a mess too. Looks like he spends his evenings shovelling down buckets of KFC and greasy donners.

We must be able to do better. Get on the blower to Alex Neil Nelmsy.

[srw]

His signings have overall been very poor, the thought of allowing him to rebuilding fills me with dread.

How many short central midfielders who cant defend, or score goals are we going to sign. He finally signs a winger in Williams and never plays him, mainly because he looks dreadful, but he was the one who wanted him.

[RossDee01]

This eye for a player is an absolute myth. What player has he signed from virtual obscurity and turned into a success?

 

I would say Scott Bain and Greg Stewart are the only ones.

Kane Hemmings?

 

Just re read and noticed you said virtual obscurity so maybe not Hemmings so much but still got a good bit of business out of him

[dundeefc1783]

Kane Hemmings?

 

 

Was hardly plucked from obscurity. Most knew he was a good player and it just hadn't worked out for him down south.

 

[RossDee01]

 
Was hardly plucked from obscurity. Most knew he was a good player and it just hadn't worked out for him down south.
 

Yeah I did edit my post once i realised you said obscurity, that's my bad.

[AnAnInginAneAnA]

Dinna ken what you lads are bletherin aboot. Daryll Meggatt, Phil Roberts, Luka Tankulic, and Simon Ferry were all fucking excellent signings.*

 

 

 

 

 *^{But in all seriousness, I wouldn't phone any of those boys if I was short for a game of 5's.}

[DieDee]

5 hours ago, Shadow Play said:

We've had worse teams and squads in recent history but I doubt we've had a manager that has been backed so much both financially and in the press by the board in recent history.  Regardless of the quality of the recent squad I think it's fair to say I'm struggling to think of a more unbalanced squad in recent history.  The fact that Hartley is saying he needs to strengthen in every department is a definite sign that his signings in every department have been poor and not just in the last summer transfer window either.

If Hartley's comments about Bain did backfire is that not another indication of him not knowing how to get the best out of his players and how best to motivate them?

His confidence when things were going well is being showed up as nothing more than arrogance.  He's out his depth and there is no way he should be allowed anymore money to bring in players he thinks are good enough.  It will no doubt cost a small fortune to get rid of some of the players he has brought in already.

Totally agree - Hartley seems to have an idea in mind to which he thinks players he has seen as fitting the bill will work. Overall it has been atrocious. When he took over he did the simple things well with the squad he had available and then signed a couple of gems from seeing them first hand. Since then things have gone backwards. The likes of McAllister obviously didn't fit the bill when he is exactly the type of player we could do with now. Kerr was close to being released last summer - thankfully that was one decision he got right. So we have

Bain - not surprised he wants to leave, seriously gone backwards this season. Is the coaching poor, is it tactical that he is told to stay on his line or is it confidence from what's in front of him? He used to come for crosses well - now he bricks it every time, shot stopping still excellent

Kerr - player of year for me, sometimes pulled out of position but only to try to make up for deficiencies elsewhere 

O'Dea - Overall a good controlling influence. The positioning against Aberdeen, and others, looks like a problem with the manager. If we are to mark players well away from goal before they run in we must hold them tight to prevent any momentum before the cross comes in. We should have adjusted to 3 zone-al markers with others blocking runs. This is surely managers instructions problem

Gomis - can be good but is just a bomb-scare, Will need to show a huge upturn in concentration to get a new contract, can't see that happening

Julen - I think he has taken far more criticism than he warrants. Positionally good, fine in the air and can pass well. A couple of howlers but overall wish he was available

Holt - can be really good on his day but has no pace. A sign of an unbalanced squad as no cover for this area 

Gadzalov - impressed for a while but just not overall quality we need. Like Gomis likely to go to help rebuilding

McGowan  - limited but happy with him as long as it is beside a complimentary player not a similar one

Low, Ross, Vincent, Hateley, Loy & Mitchell - Just no-where near good enough. That does include Vincent who is clearly not a CDM and doesn't have any edge elsewhere

Wighton & O'Hara, El Bak - Not had great seasons but that has come from style and tactics used. When not playing well they can't be replaced because bench is sh*te

Ojaama & Haber - good options, happy with both

Time to change my mind yet but likely I'd go for releasing / moving on Gomis, Gadzalov, Low, Ross, Vincent, Hateley, Loy & Mitchell. I'd try to tie down Cammy on a longer term deal, sign another left back, a central defender, a proper central midfielder and a winger. Bringing through youths would make up balance with other cash held back for emergencies.

Just don't trust Hartley to make these decisions. We really should have had a chunk of pre-contract agreements by now to snap up the real gems. Not optimistic for next season at all

[Fifespud]

Totally agree - Hartley seems to have an idea in mind to which he thinks players he has seen as fitting the bill will work. Overall it has been atrocious. When he took over he did the simple things well with the squad he had available and then signed a couple of gems from seeing them first hand. Since then things have gone backwards. The likes of McAllister obviously didn't fit the bill when he is exactly the type of player we could do with now. Kerr was close to being released last summer - thankfully that was one decision he got right. So we have
Bain - not surprised he wants to leave, seriously gone backwards this season. Is the coaching poor, is it tactical that he is told to stay on his line or is it confidence from what's in front of him? He used to come for crosses well - now he bricks it every time, shot stopping still excellent
Kerr - player of year for me, sometimes pulled out of position but only to try to make up for deficiencies elsewhere 
O'Dea - Overall a good controlling influence. The positioning against Aberdeen, and others, looks like a problem with the manager. If we are to mark players well away from goal before they run in we must hold them tight to prevent any momentum before the cross comes in. We should have adjusted to 3 zone-al markers with others blocking runs. This is surely managers instructions problem
Gomis - can be good but is just a bomb-scare, Will need to show a huge upturn in concentration to get a new contract, can't see that happening
Julen - I think he has taken far more criticism than he warrants. Positionally good, fine in the air and can pass well. A couple of howlers but overall wish he was available
Holt - can be really good on his day but has no pace. A sign of an unbalanced squad as no cover for this area 
Gadzalov - impressed for a while but just not overall quality we need. Like Gomis likely to go to help rebuilding
McGowan  - limited but happy with him as long as it is beside a complimentary player not a similar one
Low, Ross, Vincent, Hateley, Loy & Mitchell - Just no-where near good enough. That does include Vincent who is clearly not a CDM and doesn't have any edge elsewhere
Wighton & O'Hara, El Bak - Not had great seasons but that has come from style and tactics used. When not playing well they can't be replaced because bench is sh*te
Ojaama & Haber - good options, happy with both
Time to change my mind yet but likely I'd go for releasing / moving on Gomis, Gadzalov, Low, Ross, Vincent, Hateley, Loy & Mitchell. I'd try to tie down Cammy on a longer term deal, sign another left back, a central defender, a proper central midfielder and a winger. Bringing through youths would make up balance with other cash held back for emergencies.
Just don't trust Hartley to make these decisions. We really should have had a chunk of pre-contract agreements by now to snap up the real gems. Not optimistic for next season at all

I agree with all that except Vincent. Despite playing in a shitey, low confidence team he's shown he can do some sort of job. If he was on the bench as an option, as opposed to Ross, I'd be happier.

[Father Dougal McGuire]

This eye for a player is an absolute myth. What player has he signed from virtual obscurity and turned into a success?

I would say Scott Bain and Greg Stewart are the only ones.

Paul Mcginn? These are very much exceptions to the rule though.

[dundeefc1783]

Paul Mcginn? These are very much exceptions to the rule though.

Was he an unknown though he was a decent player for Dumbarton iirc

[Father Dougal McGuire]

Was he an unknown though he was a decent player for Dumbarton iirc

Same with Greg Stewart then surely?

[Ludo*1]

 
Was hardly plucked from obscurity. Most knew he was a good player and it just hadn't worked out for him down south.
 

He was at Cowdenbeath before Barnsley. O'Dea was another, didn't get his contract renewed in India. David Clarkson broke records in the short time he was at the club and done a job. Gadz was plucked from literally nowhere. O'Hara was free to leave Killie. Haber wad a St Johnstone reject.

[Yoda8]

Hartley will see out the season before being replaced by John Hughes. 

 

[SweeperDee]

Hartley will see out the season before being replaced by John Hughes. 
 

Dingys

[Yoda8]

Just now, SweeperDee said:

 

Dingys

 

Eh?