All things Dundee FC

[Fifespud]

This is the part that as an outsider I really struggle to get my head round. Hartley was chased at the split last year and having just checked his record was almost identical to McCann's at the moment, in fact his side had scored (2) more goals.
Hartley - P 33 W 8  D 6 L 19 F 33 A 53 GD -20 Pts 30 Position: 11th 
McCann - P 33 W 8 D 6 L 19 F 31 A 53 GD -22  Pts 30 Position: 10th
It's almost exactly the same record yet Hartley was (rightly) chased yet McCann, with exactly the same defensive record seems to be under very little pressure. As I say from an outsider's POV it's pretty hard to square.

Hartley would have got away with that record in his first full season too but we were going backwards. He’d signed a load of shite and that has become, in part, some of the reason we’ve been so pish this year, a lot of shite players on the books.

I like Gowser and if he was our worst midfielder regularly starting that would be fine. However he is arguably our best, Kamara excepted, and that’s a problem.

At least the players are still playing for NM, Thistle’s seem to have given up on Archie as have Hamilton’s players on Canning. County are on a bit of a roll however [emoji51]

[Dee Bliss]

42 minutes ago, RossDee01 said:

This is going to sound like a load of pish, but I generally think we almost have a pretty good team. The problem is, that for the 8 or so decent players we have, we have 3 or 4 who are way out of their depth and costing us big time.

 

The 3 centre halves are all solid, but are sold out time and time again by our full backs who seem totally incompetent at this level.

 

I like Parish, and really would like to see him do well but he's just not good enough imo at this level and although he does make a lot of good saves, he makes far too many costly mistakes.

 

Kamara and McGowan are good, but the other midfielders we have are no better than squad players.

 

Murray is the only striker we have that looks remotely dangerous, but we badly need someone who can put the ball in the net.

 

I agree with that. If we get the 6 points that in my opinion are required to stay up, we won’t need a massive overhaul of the team like the last 5-6 season’s. 

2 strikers are the main priorities. Obviously if we can improve on what we have you make the signing but 2 half decent strikers would make a world of difference to our current side. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Yenitit

[Dee Bliss]

Given a choice GMan would you rather have this season’s  or last season’s squad?

 

I’d definitely pick this season’s 

[Dee Bliss]

5 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

Surely our midfield needs looked at. Our defence is getting zero protection from the midfield . What attacking players do we have coming from midfield ?

A stable team would do wonders. Hopefully McCann may somehow learn that tombola dosnt work.

Every area could be improved but 2 strikers are the priority. Unreal this year how many games we’ve been the better team in  but dropped points because the strikers have been piss poor. I wouldn’t be overly worried with the midfield we’ve got. Keep them and look to improve on some of the dross that Hartley left us.

That has severely hampered us this season. Hateley, Vincent, Williams plus a couple of others that a still there. Having a manager in place before the season ends must be a better starting position than last season. 

[capt_oats]

28 minutes ago, RossDee01 said:

Hartley had 3 years to build a squad and it was clear as day to everyone that we were going backwards. That squad he left was full of failed cast offs. McCann cane in and steadied the ship and managed to keep us up.

Over he summer he made some signings and again it's clear to see that the players are of a much better quality. For a few of them though this is their first season playing consistent first team football. I'm pretty sure that we also have the youngest side in the league alongside you guys.

 

26 minutes ago, Fifespud said:

Hartley would have got away with that record in his first full season too but we were going backwards. He’d signed a load of shite and that has become, in part, some of the reason we’ve been so pish this year, a lot of shite players on the books.

I like Gowser and if he was our worst midfielder regularly starting that would be fine. However he is arguably our best, Kamara excepted, and that’s a problem.

At least the players are still playing for NM, Thistle’s seem to have given up on Archie as have Hamilton’s players on Canning. County are on a bit of a roll however

 

Yeah, I totally get the regression argument with Hartley. It's fair enough and emptying him was the right thing to do especially after Aberdeen put 7 past you (we had the same thing). I just find it pretty difficult to get my head round the difference in perception between two teams with virtually identical records.

Then again, it's not my problem so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I have a feeling that the "youngest side in the league" thing is actually a bit of a myth. IIRC it was based on one game where you guys put out a young first XI.  Don't get me wrong there are plenty of games where your side seem to have had a younger average than the opposition but there are still quite a few where the difference has been negligible or the opposition has fielded a younger side than Dundee (ICT in the 2-2 at Dens for example).

Going by transfermarkt the average age of your squad is pretty much mid-table (see below).  In terms of the average age of the sides you've been putting out starting from Celtic mid-week the average age of the teams have apparently been: 25.9 (vs Celtic), 26.8 (vs Hearts),  26.9 (vs Aberdeen), 25.0 (vs St.J) and 26.3 (vs. Motherwell).

FWIW the average age of our starting XI in that game was apparently 24.8.

Edited April 7, 2018 by capt_oats

[Dee Bliss]

1 hour ago, G_Man1985 said:

Neither and that's my issue as we are fighting for relegation again and it's not as if McCann hasn't brought in his own boys.

He has brought in something like 13 players. ( may be more ?).

We have no creativity at all in midfield and agree about our strikers.
Moussa and Aj off McCann signings have been poor. What I don't understand about them is both have zero track record of scoring goals yet they were the best we could find.
Yet he brought in Scott who has had a good season in the youths but not even close to when first team.

I still think McCann needs help down there.

Hypothetically if we finish 10th or lower is it a fail from McCann with the amount of the players he has brought in ?
 

If we finish 11th or lower it’s a failure. Suppose it depends on people’s level of expectation.  It’s not as if our budget is a game changer compared to others in the bottom 6. 

McCann being in place at the start of the summer has to be an advantage over last season. Playing catch-up last summer with a late appointment doesn’t help anyone. 

 

I’ve never seen Scott play so can’t comment. Doing it at development level is massively  different from making an impression in the 1st team tho. 

I agree about McCann needing a help. Today we were in the game until he decided to chase the game at 1 nil down putting Wighton on and playing with 3 strikers. I would’ve left things as they were because we were creating chances. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Yenitit

[Fifespud]

Finishing 10th he gets a reprieve and a chance to learn from his mistakes. The strikers are dog shit. In the January window Lennon emptied his strike force and the 2nd half of the season has been a great success. We should have punted AJ for sure and I did say so at the time.

[Dee Bliss]

38 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

 

 

Regarding Scott, neither have I but he is scoring every week more or less ( sure we are like 2nd or 3rd top) so surely things like that McCann needs to look at. Instead Moussa still gets looked at.
Last sentence has been McCann all season and this is what is costing us.

Changing a team or not making a correct change or leaving it to late. Huge lack of experience and f**k all help which is clear as day.
Finishing 10th is a thank f**k season is over now finger out for next season. f**k all excuses.
Anything lower and for me I'm unsure as finishing 11th or 12th is unacceptable

 

I can’t argue with anything  you’ve said. The comment about a 10th place finish and finger oot next season is spot on. Regards the lack of help from coach’s, numerous times this season I think someone in the coaching staff should’ve had a word in McCann’s ear about not being hasty with his subbies and changing of a half decent settled team. Rangers today and halftime against St Johnstone are recent examples of it still happening. If Gartland isn’t doing this then he needs replaced.

 

A bit off course here but  overall the club appears to be coming on leaps and bounds at development and  under age levels. Arguably it’s now in its best condition in the last 25/30 years. I remember the youths and reserve teams getting sent to play in a preseason tournament against Highland league teams and Junior teams. Now we’ve got the under 12s currently out training at Valencia’s training complex. It does appear the club are getting things right in these areas which can only help. Having said that the 1st team is always the main priority but it’s not all doom and gloom around the club. 

 

I think we’ll finish 9th this season. 

Edited April 7, 2018 by Yenitit

[Shadow Play]

11 hours ago, Fifespud said:

 

Hartley would have got away with that record in his first full season too but we were going backwards. He’d signed a load of shite and that has become, in part, some of the reason we’ve been so pish this year, a lot of shite players on the books.

I like Gowser and if he was our worst midfielder regularly starting that would be fine. However he is arguably our best, Kamara excepted, and that’s a problem.

At least the players are still playing for NM, Thistle’s seem to have given up on Archie as have Hamilton’s players on Canning. County are on a bit of a roll however

 

Couldn’t agree with you more Spud.  I’d also add that in McGowan and Kamara you have two midfielders who will score virtually zero league goals in a season.   Not a luxury we can afford when we have strikers that will score virtually zero league league goals in a season.

I can’t remember a Kamara shot and I try desperately to forget McGowan’s shots.*

* apart from the one that sent United crashing out the cup 

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Hamilton c***s down to ten men, not half time yet.

[srw]

14 hours ago, capt_oats said:

This is the part that as an outsider I really struggle to get my head round. Hartley was chased at the split last year and having just checked his record was almost identical to McCann's at the moment, in fact his side had scored (2) more goals.

Hartley - P 33 W 8  D 6 L 19 F 33 A 53 GD -20 Pts 30 Position: 11th 
McCann - P 33 W 8 D 6 L 19 F 31 A 53 GD -22  Pts 30 Position: 10th

It's almost exactly the same record yet Hartley was (rightly) chased yet McCann, with exactly the same defensive record seems to be under very little pressure. As I say from an outsider's POV it's pretty hard to square.

Its tribalism.

For months Ive read that we are almost a good team, that things will click, that all we need is one result, a stroke of luck etc.

The truth is, we are shite, we have the second worst scoring record, and the 4th worst defensive record. 

Defensively we look good on paper, Caulker should be better than he is, Meekings was hailed as a very good signing, O'Dea was solid last year, Kusunga looks decent, yet no matter what formation we play we concede daft goals. Yes the full backs dont help, but Kusunga yesterday had a brain fart, something that happens far too often to us.

Midfield, I think we are ok here, Kamara and McGowan are good enough, O'Hara needs to improve, a goal against Rangers, then a few months of hiding is normal for him, although to be fair he has actually played in the last few games.

Attacking, we are mid championship level. Haber saved us last season, got a long term contract and hasnt looked interested since, Moussa is just awful as a striker, never going to score goals regularly, El Bak scores a wonder goal once a season, Murray runs about a lot, but has no composure, Deacon is a fcking illusionist, how some fans rate him is a mystery, Wolters makes money playing football, kudos to him for fooling teams into signing him , AJLS has scored some goals, but is so slow and doesnt fit our system.

We are no better this season that last, but some think anything less than positivity constitutes not being a supporter.

[locheedee]

20 hours ago, RossDee01 said:

This is going to sound like a load of pish, but I generally think we almost have a pretty good team. The problem is, that for the 8 or so decent players we have, we have 3 or 4 who are way out of their depth and costing us big time.

 

The 3 centre halves are all solid, but are sold out time and time again by our full backs who seem totally incompetent at this level.

 

I like Parish, and really would like to see him do well but he's just not good enough imo at this level and although he does make a lot of good saves, he makes far too many costly mistakes.

 

Kamara and McGowan are good, but the other midfielders we have are no better than squad players.

 

Murray is the only striker we have that looks remotely dangerous, but we badly need someone who can put the ball in the net.

 

I totally agree - I've been saying to my mates for a while that we're not as bad as our results have us looking...

We do have a fair few donkeys in the squad but I honestly think if we had even one half decent striker (nothing amazing but could find the net when clear on goal) then we'd be far closer to top six than relegation.

Doesn't mean fk all now but hopefully if we stay up we can find a half decent striker this summer and push on next season.

Thank you

 

[DeeTillEhDeh]

We've also lost points a few times from winning positions - the first away match against Thistle and the 10-man Killie game being prime examples.

 

We need to be a lot more clinical and just shut up shop if we are leading - nothing fancy or this playing out from the back pish.

 

 

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

I like what McCann is trying to do, played well yesterday, and, with a decent striker could have got the three points. 3 or 4 good signings in the summer (good track record with signings as well) and everything is wonderful again. These things take time.

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

33 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

That third goal against Rangers is one of the worst I've ever seen.
That is comical.

Can't say we have been unlucky when we have the second worst goal difference in the league and I presume we have scored maybe the second least amount of goals.
For this decent defence we have we have had plenty pumpings.

I'm not buying into McCann at all I'm afraid.

Moussa he has brought in is brutal. 1 goal from open play in an entire season for a striker is terrible. We can make excuses about how unlucky we have been and decisions and offsides etc but we are still fighting to stay in this league.
This is McCann team and right now it's not convinced me at all he is the man to bring us forward.
I believe he has an eye for a decent player , that is granted but as a manager he is shite.

If he dosnt get help next season at the dug out I expect us next season to be back down in the dog fight as his man management skills on and off the pitch are poor.

I hope he gets the help he needs to succeed as manager as by the sounds of it our youth teams seem to be going good ( can't remember who said it on here ) so that is something to look forward to.

This new stadium what's happening ? Where are the in the know it people to tell us the update as it's been a while?

We are certainly a drama club.

You're totally negative all the fucking time G_Man.

[locheedee]

36 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

This new stadium what's happening ? Where are the in the know it people to tell us the update as it's been a while?

I was one of the vaguely itk folks coz of where I work but as far as I know it's still going through planning - there is a lot more negotiation still to go unfortunately (not entirely the clubs fault but it was spun as being a lot more concrete than it really was I think) so I'd expect it to be a wee while yet before the finalised plans come out.

Sorry I've not got anything more than that but it is being dealt with professionally for a change - as far as I know anyway.

 

[tree house tam]

If McCann can blow a top 6 budget on half the haddies you boys have I'm all for him getting another few seasons. G_man can see it, why can't the rest of you? 

Kamara is the only shining light he's had. Deacon was worth a punt, some of them work out but the rest? Pish.

[Dee Bliss]

13 minutes ago, tree house tam said:

If McCann can blow a top 6 budget on half the haddies you boys have I'm all for him getting another few seasons. G_man can see it, why can't the rest of you? 

Kamara is the only shining light he's had. Deacon was worth a punt, some of them work out but the rest? Pish.

Aye and that £1.5m centrehalf he sold to Celtic as well, obviously. 

Oh and keeping Gowser from the clutches o the fermers. 

[Bigmouth Strikes Again]

Just now, Yenitit said:

Aye and that £1.5m centrehalf he sold to Celtic as well, obviously. 

Oh and keeping Gowser from the clutches o the fermers. 

1.8 million for Caulker also.

[MarbellaDEE]

12 hours ago, srw said:

Its tribalism.

For months Ive read that we are almost a good team, that things will click, that all we need is one result, a stroke of luck etc.

The truth is, we are shite, we have the second worst scoring record, and the 4th worst defensive record. 

Defensively we look good on paper, Caulker should be better than he is, Meekings was hailed as a very good signing, O'Dea was solid last year, Kusunga looks decent, yet no matter what formation we play we concede daft goals. Yes the full backs dont help, but Kusunga yesterday had a brain fart, something that happens far too often to us.

Midfield, I think we are ok here, Kamara and McGowan are good enough, O'Hara needs to improve, a goal against Rangers, then a few months of hiding is normal for him, although to be fair he has actually played in the last few games.

Attacking, we are mid championship level. Haber saved us last season, got a long term contract and hasnt looked interested since, Moussa is just awful as a striker, never going to score goals regularly, El Bak scores a wonder goal once a season, Murray runs about a lot, but has no composure, Deacon is a fcking illusionist, how some fans rate him is a mystery, Wolters makes money playing football, kudos to him for fooling teams into signing him , AJLS has scored some goals, but is so slow and doesnt fit our system.

We are no better this season that last, but some think anything less than positivity constitutes not being a supporter.

We were obviously watching a different game on Saturday because I thought deacon was excellent as was Kamara. Deacons inability to cross the ball is frustrating but I think he offers a lot elsewhere. Moussa is certainly not a striker but I felt his hold up play was excellent and as soon as he went off we were finished. I think we have enough to stay up and but for some criminal defending we might have got something on Saturday. 

Also Haber probably hasn’t been interested cos he’s been injured m8.