All things Dundee FC

[Dark Blue Dick]

12 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

In that case why was McIntyre appointed?    With the new appointment we needed an immediate feel good factor around Dens and the resultant ‘new manager bounce’.  For numerous reasons McIntyre's appointment was never likely to bring that.

This is irrelevant to the Dodds discussion, and our role as fans.

We can quibble about McIntyres appointment for sure (and I certainly would).

[dd23]

I think the first thing is that we have to remember where we were. We were staring relegation in the face. and needed to turn things round, with the transfer window still months away.  My only concern was survival, the background of the potential candidates was last thing on my mind.
Were McIntyre and Dodds the best choice? That's irrelevant. (and my opinion was no) But the club appointed McIntyre, and McIntyre wanted Dodds.  The point is that the fans feelings should not then have been a factor, but the fans shouldn't have made it a factor. 
Lets postulate a hypothetical; would you prefer that we appointed Dodds and survived, or were relegated?  Which is more important to you? 
Please remember that I am not saying that Doods would have saved us. Who knows. 

It's absolutely pointless to speculate about that, I'd fire straight back at you what if we'd appointed the duo and gone down anyway while alienating a fair percentage of the fan base.
You're trying to make a straight up rational point here, but that point itself is based on loads of variables.
And the bottom line is football fans are not rational, if they were they wouldn't support football clubs, especially ones like Dundee who I can thank personally for over 40 years of almost unrelenting disappointments.
Take a look at the general decline of our fanbase over that period if you want an absolute indication of what happens when fans get let down again and again by the board.
To be fair i don't think this board is letting us down at all, i just think that someone who's knowledge in a field is limited has made poor decisions which have cost us dearly on the park.
Hopefully the right decision is made this time, and advice is taken from more than a spreadsheet and a load of dry statistics.
A good appointment now and in a few years this sorry episode will be well behind us.

[Dark Blue Dick]

10 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

Lets bring in an ex Arab and his assistant who wanted us liquidated. Ah well we got stuck with just the one of them. The good news for him though is he got his mate Curran a nice lengthy contract so no doubt we will have to pay him off..

 

There is no doubt that McIntyres appointment was an absolute, unmitigated disaster …...

[Dark Blue Dick]

7 minutes ago, Shadow Play said:

Let’s look at this from another perspective.  If Dodds had been appointed along with McIntyre and we were still relegated (very likely given McIntyre’s appointments) would you not be more annoyed at yourself for not saying anything and just accepting him with a shrug of the shoulders?

Well let's be clear, I am absolutely fucking raging at relegation, Dodds or not. The fact is, we are relegated, and management would have been sacked, deservedly, no matter who it was. 

[Dark Blue Dick]

6 minutes ago, dd23 said:

It's absolutely pointless to speculate about that, I'd fire straight back at you what if we'd appointed the duo and gone down anyway while alienating a fair percentage of the fan base.
You're trying to make a straight up rational point here, but that point itself is based on loads of variables.
And the bottom line is football fans are not rational, if they were they wouldn't support football clubs, especially ones like Dundee who I can thank personally for over 40 years of almost unrelenting disappointments.
Take a look at the general decline of our fanbase over that period if you want an absolute indication of what happens when fans get let down again and again by the board.
To be fair i don't think this board is letting us down at all, i just think that someone who's knowledge in a field is limited has made poor decisions which have cost us dearly on the park.
Hopefully the right decision is made this time, and advice is taken from more than a spreadsheet and a load of dry statistics.
A good appointment now and in a few years this sorry episode will be well behind us.

I agree with much of this.

Lets say it was McIntyre and Dodds fired today after relegation - would that have been materially worse? No. We're still down, and still  fucked. 

Football fans are not rational? Some of them aren't, that's for sure. 

[Dark Blue Dick]

11 minutes ago, G_Man1985 said:

The blame lies with the board. This whole mess is to do with them. When was the last time we had any decent board?
You cant say the board listen to the fans ( Dodds for example)... because if you did McIntyre wouldn't of been picked or he would of been sacked a lot earlier...

However we need their money so we pay our money and do as we are told as fans..
First time kilmac stadium be in the championship

Ok, so yes, the board takes most of the blame. Regardless of the financial backing, which in some ways makes it worse knowing that we had funds but misspent them, but my point is that we fans are not blameless either. 

I'm not on the board. I say to myself, how can I help the club? I buy a season ticket, I buy merchandise in the shop, I buy Dee TV, and I don't boo the team on the park, no matter how pish they are playing. 

And I don't put my 'feelings' above the potential success of the team. 

Lets all pull together - the team needs us next year. And we all want the same thing  - a successful team on the park. 

[Dee Man]

5 minutes ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

Ok, so yes, the board takes most of the blame. Regardless of the financial backing, which in some ways makes it worse knowing that we had funds but misspent them, but my point is that we fans are not blameless either. 

I'm not on the board. I say to myself, how can I help the club? I buy a season ticket, I buy merchandise in the shop, I buy Dee TV, and I don't boo the team on the park, no matter how pish they are playing. 

And I don't put my 'feelings' above the potential success of the team. 

Lets all pull together - the team needs us next year. And we all want the same thing  - a successful team on the park. 

Stop saying "feelings" all the time - it's fucking morals, man. 

You're literally the only poster from any club I've ever seen say the board should actively ignore the fans. What kind of shite is that?

[Dark Blue Dick]

3 minutes ago, Dee Man said:

Stop saying "feelings" all the time - it's fucking morals, man. 

You're literally the only poster from any club I've ever seen say the board should actively ignore the fans. What kind of shite is that?

Hi Dee Man,

How would you define the difference between 'feelings' and morals? because I honestly don't understand the distinction you appear to be making. A clarification would be helpful.

I am not saying the board should ignore the fans - where did I say that? You seem to be implying that the board should always consider fans 'feelings' above all else.  My argument is that the board should put immediate football decisions above fans 'feelings'. 

Clearly there's a balance, but when we are staring down the barrel of relegation, that's when fans feelings should take a back seat. Disagree?

 

[Dee Man]

1 hour ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

I think the first thing is that we have to remember where we were. We were staring relegation in the face. and needed to turn things round, with the transfer window still months away.  My only concern was survival, the background of the potential candidates was last thing on my mind.

Were McIntyre and Dodds the best choice? That's irrelevant. (and my opinion was no) But the club appointed McIntyre, and McIntyre wanted Dodds.  The point is that the fans feelings should not then have been a factor, but the fans shouldn't have made it a factor. 

Lets postulate a hypothetical; would you prefer that we appointed Dodds and survived, or were relegated?  Which is more important to you? 

Please remember that I am not saying that Doods would have saved us. Who knows. 

This is where you imply that the fans should have been ignored. 

[Dark Blue Dick]

1 minute ago, Dee Man said:

This is where you imply that the fans should have been ignored. 

With respect, I think you should see that my comment is specifically about the decision to employ Dodds. it's not a blanket call for fans to be ignored.  

As I said, 

"My argument is that the board should put immediate football decisions above fans 'feelings'. 

Clearly there's a balance, but when we are staring down the barrel of relegation, that's when fans feelings should take a back seat. Disagree?"

[captainkev]

Even as a United fan I've sympathy for the Dees who were raging about the prospect of Dodds joining McIntyre.

There are somethings you can't just suck up and bear with, no matter how screwed you are on the pitch. Rehiring a guy who previously voted to liquidate the whole club definitely falls under that bracket.

Anyway, how thick must McIntyre be if his coaching methods and tactics are so woeful without the insight and input of Billy Dodds?

Edited May 13, 2019 by captainkev
Not a good look to be calling someone thick when one of your own sentences contains a typo.

[srw]

2 hours ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

You are happier that we are relegated, than we employed Billy Dodds and stayed up? Yes?

Im sure others will have mentioned this before now, however, where is the proof that Dodds is any use, that we would have stayed up with him at Dens?

DFC supporters have been pretty damn good this season, considering how utterly abject the team has been IMO.

While DFC is my club, there are moral absolutes that can not be crossed for me, I wouldnt support their decision to hire the likes of David Goodwillie or Adam Johnson for obvious reasons, and I wouldnt back them in employing the likes of Billy Dodds. Some may think thats wrong, but tough, its my opinion.

Billy Dodds is a pundit on the BBC, not a world renowned coach at Barca etc etc 

[srw]

5 minutes ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

No one is claiming that Dodds would have kept us up, Certainly not me.  No one can know. 

The hypothetical question was to determine if you would put Dodds employment above Dundee's relegation? From your post. I gather that you prefer that we are relegated to employing Billy Dodds? And if that's true, then we have nothing further to discuss.

 

1 minute ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

I am not going to defend McIntyre, however that's irrelevant to the discussion.

But to the point, it's simply disingenuous to suggest that it wasn't fan opinion that blocked Dodds. 

Had we blocked a Guardiola and Klopp dream team, Id understand youre POV, but we didnt, all we did was say wed be unhappy with Dodds.

If you have no morals, backbone or pride, and believe winning at all costs is the most important thing, well thats certainly an opinion that youre entitled to.

[Dark Blue Dick]

1 minute ago, srw said:

 

Had we blocked a Guardiola and Klopp dream team, Id understand youre POV, but we didnt, all we did was say wed be unhappy with Dodds.

If you have no morals, backbone or pride, and believe winning at all costs is the most important thing, well thats certainly an opinion that youre entitled to.

I get it. I would have been unhappy with Dodds too. But I would have sucked it up to avoid relegation. 

You prefer relegation to Dodds? yes?

[Daydream]

I get it. I would have been unhappy with Dodds too. But I would have sucked it up to avoid relegation. 
You prefer relegation to Dodds? yes?

We’ll never know if having Doddsy would’ve saved us. And no one was willing to find out. End of.

[srw]

7 minutes ago, Dark Blue Dick said:

You prefer relegation to Dodds? yes?

I see no evidence that that was the binary choice, so its a pointless issue, much like most of McIntyres games.

[Derry Alli]

If I was offered the choice of where we are now - relegation - or money I work to earn being given to a man who actively tried to get this club shut down, then yes, I would have and am happy to have been relegated. 

Get it right up the little jug eared rat b*****d. 

[srw]

7 minutes ago, Dele said:

If I was offered the choice of where we are now - relegation - or money I work to earn being given to a man who actively tried to get this club shut down, then yes, I would have and am happy to have been relegated. 

Away with your morals.

[Highland Capital]

Just had a look there and Tanner has had a nightmare.  What makes matters worse is that he seems hell bent arguing with everyone to make the same points again and again.  Quite tragic to watch actually.

[Paul Cicero]

2 hours ago, srw said:

Spot on.

Having just read the last two pages, Id like to point out something quite important. DFC fans didnt stop Nelms or McIntyre appointing Dodds, all we did was make our voice very clear. If they genuinely thought that Dodds was vital, they would have appointed him.

Its not like the fans could have held McIntyre in lower esteem anyway, we didnt want him when he was appointed, we didnt want him midway through his tenure, and we certainly didnt want him this week. It was a truly appalling appointment that was absolutely doomed to failure. McIntyre is a bonafide fucking retard, who would interview him and be impressed? His vocabulary consists of you know and you know and more bloody you knows.

FEENEESHED