Own Jones.

[renton]

Pie and Bovril is the only place where being a member of a left-wing party apparently doesn't make you left-wing.

Your not though, your a member of the Labour party.

[H_B]

You aren't a left wing nationalist so you don't count to some.

The only left wing party are the SNP.

Left wing parties reduce corporation tax. It's part of the ethos.

[renton]

The only left wing party are the SNP.

Left wing parties reduce corporation tax. It's part of the ethos.

It's not a particularly progressive policy at all, but then again, the Labour party did it three times in office, so y'know, there's that.

[H_B]

It's not a particularly progressive policy at all, but then again, the Labour party did it three times in office, so y'know, there's that.

It's a policy which the SNP's own economic adviser has said increases inequality in society and is a gift to the rich. Like a Council Tax freeze is also.

I don't consider either the SNP or Labour to be left wing. Both are centrist. Though economically, Labour under Miliband are clearly more left wing than the SNP under Salmond. Time will tell if Sturgeon changes this.

[Reynard]

It's not a particularly progressive policy at all, but then again, the Labour party did it three times in office, so y'know, there's that.

Did they do this to increase inequality? When top rate of tax was shifted to 50% in the dying days of the Brown administration was this done to reduce inequality? Why is it that reduced taxation has been shown to actually increase revenue into the state coffers? Does reducing tax and increasing the amount of money the state can spend increase or decrease the prospect of solving "inequality"? Assuming you have a government in charge that wishes to do this of course by direct interference.

[renton]

It's a policy which the SNP's own economic adviser has said increases inequality in society and is a gift to the rich. Like a Council Tax freeze is also.

I don't consider either the SNP or Labour to be left wing. Both are centrist. Though economically, Labour under Miliband are clearly more left wing than the SNP under Salmond. Time will tell if Sturgeon changes this.

It's not exactly a fair comparison, given that the SNP do not have the power to change fiscal and welfare policies at Holyrood in the same way Labour do at Westminster. Not saying your wrong on this count, but it makes a like for like comparison based on outcomes difficult. The other issue I see with those comparisons is that the modern Labour party has a tendency to put a gloss over dog shit policies. Take the energy freeze for example, it looks left wing in terms of instinct, but the actual outcomes aren't - a temporary freeze which the energy companies can circumnavigate by pushing prices up before the freeze, without any attempt at long term or progressive changes to the energy industry, which actually would be a left wing policy.

[renton]

Did they do this to increase inequality? When top rate of tax was shifted to 50% in the dying days of the Brown administration was this done to reduce inequality? Why is it that reduced taxation has been shown to actually increase revenue into the state coffers? Does reducing tax and increasing the amount of money the state can spend increase or decrease the prospect of solving "inequality"? Assuming you have a government in charge that wishes to do this of course by direct interference.

not the fucking Laffer curve again.

[Reynard]

not the fucking Laffer curve again.

Well take a look at state income from taxation and the various rates of tax set and tell me its wrong.

[H_B]

It's not exactly a fair comparison, given that the SNP do not have the power to change fiscal and welfare policies at Holyrood in the same way Labour do at Westminster.

They did have a White Paper though to outline their economic policies.

The fact the CT reduction in a race to the bottom was their flagship economic policy I think says it all. Swinney refused also to match Labour's pledge to introduce the 50p tax rate.

I've not got a problem with this incidentally. The SNP are trying to appeal across the board. But let's not have any pretence they aren't a centre right party economically. They are fond of a bung to the middle classes.

[Wee Bully]

not the fucking Laffer curve again.

Thing is, Reynard is correct here. 50% top rate brought in less tax than the 45% does. Cut it how you like, but I want the tax system to be about raising revenue rather than about making political points.

[renton]

They did have a White Paper though to outline their economic policies.

The fact the CT reduction in a race to the bottom was their flagship economic policy I think says it all. Swinney refused also to match Labour's pledge to introduce the 50p tax rate.

I've not got a problem with this incidentally. The SNP are trying to appeal across the board. But let's not have any pretence they aren't a centre right party economically. They are fond of a bung to the middle classes.

I'm not really sure it was a flagship economic policy as such, perhaps their flagship fiscal policy, which when put together with (for example) their childcare policy which is also an economic policy in it';s own right, but one designed to increase productivity and is progressive in trying to bring more women into full time employment surely balances out.

[H_B]

I'm not really sure it was a flagship economic policy as such, perhaps their flagship fiscal policy, which when put together with (for example) their childcare policy which is also an economic policy in it';s own right, but one designed to increase productivity and is progressive in trying to bring more women into full time employment surely balances out.

So the SNP's economic adviser, the much lauded "Nobel Laureate" is wrong?

[strichener]

Thing is, Reynard is correct here. 50% top rate brought in less tax than the 45% does. Cut it how you like, but I want the tax system to be about raising revenue rather than about making political points.

This was not a consequence of the rate that was set. It was purely down to the time the rate was in place. i.e. Companies adjusted their employee benefits to avoid the 50% rate in as far as was possible, the fact that it was in place for such a short period of time allowed GO to claim that it wasn't raising the money expected.

[renton]

So the SNP's economic adviser, the much lauded "Nobel Laureate" is wrong?

I didn't say that. I'm not questioning the regressive nature of a corporation tax cut, I'm suggesting that elevating it to the position of 'flagship economic policy' is possibly incorrect.

[Wee Bully]

This was not a consequence of the rate that was set. It was purely down to the time the rate was in place. i.e. Companies adjusted their employee benefits to avoid the 50% rate in as far as was possible, the fact that it was in place for such a short period of time allowed GO to claim that it wasn't raising the money expected.

Of course they adjusted benefits etc. That is the point of the Laffer curve. People have their own view of how much tax is "too much", and will enter into (legal) avoidance when their own predetermined limit is reached. That's why more planning is done at 50% than at 45%.

[boabinoban]

It was him who introduced me to the phrase Ed 'The Red' Milliband

[Reynard]

Thing is, Reynard is correct here. 50% top rate brought in less tax than the 45% does. Cut it how you like, but I want the tax system to be about raising revenue rather than about making political points.

There is an OPTIMUM rate of tax that the citizens will accept before they begin looking seriously at ways of avoiding paying.

Make it too high and you create a black market. Too low and the vast state machine doesn't get enough of our money to operate.

If you look at the percentage of state income taken in taxes since 1970-71 (UK governments Red Book June 2010 p 104) you'll see that the maximum tax take was 38.2 percent of GDP in 1982-3 and 1984-5, both years when the Tory government was trying hard to get the deficit down it was left with after another buckled left wing adventure left behind by Labour against a background of a recovering economy. The highest under Labour was 36.4 percent in 2007-8. The lowest was 31.8 percent under theToriesin 1993-4 and 33.1 percent under Labour in election year 1978-9. You need to judge it all based on actual revenues brought in. Fair enough, some of this is down to how the economy in general is performing, but thats not the entire story here.

[Dunning1874]

Pie and Bovril is the only place where being a member of a left-wing party apparently doesn't make you left-wing.

Except that's not what's happening here, because you're not a member of a left-wing party or left-wing yourself.

The place where being a member of the Labour Party doesn't make you left-wing is the real world. Especially when you - bizarrely and hilariously - argue that you don't like the current leader because he's too left-wing.

[AUFC90]

So the SNP's economic adviser, the much lauded "Nobel Laureate" is wrong?

Was he speaking about corporation tax in the context of a Scottish referendum or just generally stating that a corporation tax cut is usually regressive.

I thought all the businesses were going to move South.

Would a corporation tax cut maybe encourage them to stay or entice others to take their place ?

[jmothecat]

Except that's not what's happening here, because you're not a member of a left-wing party or left-wing yourself.

The place where being a member of the Labour Party doesn't make you left-wing is the real world. Especially when you - bizarrely and hilariously - argue that you don't like the current leader because he's too left-wing.

He is too left wing. I'm very much in the New Labour camp of the party. I am left wing though, I have left wing views and have been active for my entire adult life campaigning for left-wing and liberal campaigns (most recently campaigning against zero hour contracts).

I find people 'in the real world' to be far more right-wing than they are on here.