Jim Murphy

[Thumper]

The thing that turned me off the Lib Dems was selling out to the Tories for a referendum on a pishy watered down version of PR and then running the pishyest campaign of all pishy campaigns in history to win it. They came over as utterly useless and ineffectual amateurs who were just after getting their mitts on ministerial perks.

Proportional representation was, ironically, killed by the exact measure that brought the referendum about: the Lib Dems forming a coalition with the Tories, and thus abandoning their entire platform. "Vote for a new system which will give us more Liberal Democrats" is not a winner when roughly 75% of 2010 Lib Dem voters now regarded them as absolute pariahs.

[LongTimeLurker]

Analysis of the 2 Ashcroft polls would suggest that torys are happy voting labour but labour aint as happy to vote tory,...

Mundell's seat goes a long way north into former coalfields and covers some traditional hardcore Labour areas, so think a bit of the above average swing in the central belt stuff is probably happening now that it's clear that the way to get Mundell out is SNP rather than Labour.

[MarkoRaj]

Analysis of the 2 Ashcroft polls would suggest that torys are happy voting labour but labour aint as happy to vote tory, therefore any tactical seats that are successful(very few imo) will prob be marginal SNP/Labour areas( that have many torys) ie East Renfrewshire and Edinburgh South. In general West Scotland is prob immune here, perhaps lib dem in East Dumbartonshire. North Scotland should be Ok.

Makes sense really. people are smart enough to realise that if you are a tory it doesn't make much difference to who forms the government whether you vote snp or labour whereas labour voters, no matter how much they hate the snp, still would prefer an extra SNP MP than a tory because they know that it makes no sense to vote against the snp when it will actually harm their own party's chances of forming a government, i.e a vote for the snp is not a vote for the tories in any way, shape or form.

[Scary Bear]

The thing that turned me off the Lib Dems was selling out to the Tories for a referendum on a pishy watered down version of PR and then running the pishyest campaign of all pishy campaigns in history to win it. They came over as utterly useless and ineffectual amateurs who were just after getting their mitts on ministerial perks.

Yep, they completely fucked up there.

[Scary Bear]

And do you think it's been less bad than you expected because of the influence of the Liberal Democrats, who have enthusiastically voted for everything the Tories have asked them to?

I'm not sure. I don't know what negotiations went on.

[welshbairn]

I'm not sure. I don't know what negotiations went on.

There was a drama doc about it recently that I missed. Anyone remember what it was called and what channel it was on?

[AberdeenBud]

The leader of Scottish Labour relying on Tory voters to stay competitive in his own seat. You couldn't make it up.

[Scary Bear]

The leader of Scottish Labour relying on Tory voters to stay competitive in his own seat. You couldn't make it up.

It's just more ammunition for his opponents. Like shooting fish in a barrel.

[welshbairn]

There was a drama doc about it recently that I missed. Anyone remember what it was called and what channel it was on?

Found it: http://www.channel4.com/programmes/coalition

[Granny Danger]

We may get a chance to see how a minority party gets on in this next parliament, when they have to rely on support on a vote-by-vote basis. If it's a success, then I'll agree with you on the comments above. If not, it may point to the Lib Dems taking the right approach in trying to get as many of their policies through by forming a coalition.

There is absolutely no measure by which the positive effect the Lib Dems have had in getting whatever theoretically good Lib Dem-only policies they had passed (I can't think of a single thing they campaigned on which is now law off the top of my head) cancels out the negative effect of the Tories having had sufficient votes to enact the majority of their swingeing, class-war agenda. It would arguably have been better if nothing at all had been passed.

Thumper has it spot on.

It will be difficult to make comparisons but I think the SNP will be far more effective than the LibDems were largely because of the experience that Salmond will bring. That's no disrespect to Angus Robertson but from a group of possibly 50 or so MPs only 6 have actual experience in the Commons. I think Salmonds experience as a Parlaimentarin and as a former First Minister will be paramount.

However trying to compare and contrast will be hard, particularly if you depend on the MSM. Personally I wouldn't be oppossed to a formal coalition; maybe because I genuinely trust the SNP to do the right things for the right reasons. However I don't think that will happen and I think the SNP will have to play hardball with Labour. I hope they have the bottle to do so.

It's maybe a thought for another thread (oh no!) or another time, but I think we will really need to call Miliband's bluff in a way that no one from the SNP has been (understandably) prepared to discuss at this time.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I think Clegg etc were a bit naive but they're hardly "despicable". It'd be utterly mental to pass up the first chance in 80 odd years to try and implement some of your manifesto.

[Granny Danger]

I think Clegg etc were a bit naive but they're hardly "despicable". It'd be utterly mental to pass up the first chance in 80 odd years to try and implement some of your manifesto.

Their influence was absolutely minimal and they've fucked up their electoral position for years. For 'naive' read 'stupid'. Moreso I question their motivation; Sturgeon has continually repeated that the prime focus of the SNP MPs going to Westminster was to represent the people of Scotland.

The LibDems were more interested in the ministerial positions than meeting their objectives.

[LongTimeLurker]

The Scottish Lib Dems were outvoted in the "federal" structure of their party. They could have told Clegg to do one, if they had made themselves formally separate but almost always allied post-devolution, so they could place Scottish interests before central party diktat if the need ever arose.

[Ad Lib]

There is absolutely no measure by which the positive effect the Lib Dems have had in getting whatever theoretically good Lib Dem-only policies they had passed (I can't think of a single thing they campaigned on which is now law off the top of my head) cancels out the negative effect of the Tories having had sufficient votes to enact the majority of their swingeing, class-war agenda. It would arguably have been better if nothing at all had been passed.

In which case I'm sorry but you weren't listening.

The front page of our manifesto had four key pledges:

1. Fairer taxes that put money back in your pocket

We raised the personal allowance by *more than* we said we would in our manifesto. This was a policy David Cameron specifically said we couldn't do in the leadership debates.

We also got capital gains tax raised to 28% for higher rate earners, something the Tories opposed, introduced a higher rate of stamp duty on high value homes, part of which included a de facto mansion tax on homes owned by foreign corporate envelopes.

We blocked the Tory proposal to raise the inheritance tax threshold too.

2. A fair chance for every child

This related to our proposal for a £2.5 billion "pupil premium" which would direct government resources at schools in England which take on the most disadvantaged kids. The Tories tried to steal this policy off us in 2009, offering a £1.5 billion scheme, but the coalition delivered this in full.

Specific Lib Dem proposals on shared parental leave and expanding childcare provision for 2 and 3 year olds were also implemented by the Coalition, despite not being Tory policy. Expanding school meals for primary school kids was also secured against the wishes of the Tories.

3. A fair future - creating jobs by making Britain greener

This government has created 2 million apprentices, produced the highest ever level of employment in this country, cut unemployment, and the vast majority of new jobs are full time.

This government set up the Green Investment Bank in Edinburgh, providing seed capital for renewables investment. This is already creating jobs in offshore wind in Scotland.

4. A fair deal - cleaning up or politics

This was an area where some of our policies were held back by other parties. It's not our fault if parties representing about 2/3 of the House of Commons block our reasonable proposals for reform of the House of Lords.

Nonetheless we secured a referendum on voting reform, which *the public* decided it didn't want. We legislated for an EU referendum in the event of a Treaty change, as we promised.

Then some other policies of ours implemented in government or Tory proposals blocked:

1. No like for like replacement of Trident in this Parliament

2. Pensions triple lock guarantee

3. 0.7% GDP on foreign aid guaranteed in law

4. An end to 28 days detention without trial

5. Human Rights Act retained despite Theresa May

6. End to routine child detention at Dungavel and Yarwood.

7. Reform of control orders

8. Ended government retention of fingerprints of children on the ContactPoint database

9. Introduced the carer's bonus of £400 a year

10. Streamlined the state pension, as we said we would

11. Blocked the building of new coal power stations lacking carbon capture technology

12. Secured a public inquiry into torture and extraordinary rendition

13. Blocked Theresa May's Snoopers Charter

14. ID card scheme scrapped

15. Ended forced annuities for pensioners, letting them decide how to spend their own money

16. Introduced the banking levy, that raises more money than the Labor bankers bonus tax

17. Significantly expanded broadband services in rural areas

18. Legislated to extend flexible working rights to all employees

But yeah, apart from that, what did the Lib Dems do for us?

Considering we won only 57 of the 650 seats in Parliament, it's remarkable how much of the Lib Dem manifesto has become part of the government's record. Independent estimates suggest 75% of our manifesto was in the Coalition Agreement and that we got 40% of it implemented in government. That's really not bad going for a party with about 1/12 of the seats in the House of Commons. What were people expecting? The Lib Dem manifesto delivered in full?

[FuzzyAffro]

/\ Man who thinks party winning 3% is responsible for the outcome of an election, and gladly lies in order to be 'right'.

Tell us again Ad Lib how Better Together told you Brown was going rogue, oh that's right actually you were lying through your teeth about the whole thing as Osborne announced the vow not Brown. Which you forgot before you made up your fictitious story.

[Granny Danger]

In which case I'm sorry but you weren't listening.

The front page of our manifesto had four key pledges:

1. Fairer taxes that put money back in your pocket

We raised the personal allowance by *more than* we said we would in our manifesto. This was a policy David Cameron specifically said we couldn't do in the leadership debates.

We also got capital gains tax raised to 28% for higher rate earners, something the Tories opposed, introduced a higher rate of stamp duty on high value homes, part of which included a de facto mansion tax on homes owned by foreign corporate envelopes.

We blocked the Tory proposal to raise the inheritance tax threshold too.

2. A fair chance for every child

This related to our proposal for a £2.5 billion "pupil premium" which would direct government resources at schools in England which take on the most disadvantaged kids. The Tories tried to steal this policy off us in 2009, offering a £1.5 billion scheme, but the coalition delivered this in full.

Specific Lib Dem proposals on shared parental leave and expanding childcare provision for 2 and 3 year olds were also implemented by the Coalition, despite not being Tory policy. Expanding school meals for primary school kids was also secured against the wishes of the Tories.

3. A fair future - creating jobs by making Britain greener

This government has created 2 million apprentices, produced the highest ever level of employment in this country, cut unemployment, and the vast majority of new jobs are full time.

This government set up the Green Investment Bank in Edinburgh, providing seed capital for renewables investment. This is already creating jobs in offshore wind in Scotland.

4. A fair deal - cleaning up or politics

This was an area where some of our policies were held back by other parties. It's not our fault if parties representing about 2/3 of the House of Commons block our reasonable proposals for reform of the House of Lords.

Nonetheless we secured a referendum on voting reform, which *the public* decided it didn't want. We legislated for an EU referendum in the event of a Treaty change, as we promised.

Then some other policies of ours implemented in government or Tory proposals blocked:

1. No like for like replacement of Trident in this Parliament

2. Pensions triple lock guarantee

3. 0.7% GDP on foreign aid guaranteed in law

4. An end to 28 days detention without trial

5. Human Rights Act retained despite Theresa May

6. End to routine child detention at Dungavel and Yarwood.

7. Reform of control orders

8. Ended government retention of fingerprints of children on the ContactPoint database

9. Introduced the carer's bonus of £400 a year

10. Streamlined the state pension, as we said we would

11. Blocked the building of new coal power stations lacking carbon capture technology

12. Secured a public inquiry into torture and extraordinary rendition

13. Blocked Theresa May's Snoopers Charter

14. ID card scheme scrapped

15. Ended forced annuities for pensioners, letting them decide how to spend their own money

16. Introduced the banking levy, that raises more money than the Labor bankers bonus tax

17. Significantly expanded broadband services in rural areas

18. Legislated to extend flexible working rights to all employees

But yeah, apart from that, what did the Lib Dems do for us?

Considering we won only 57 of the 650 seats in Parliament, it's remarkable how much of the Lib Dem manifesto has become part of the government's record. Independent estimates suggest 75% of our manifesto was in the Coalition Agreement and that we got 40% of it implemented in government. That's really not bad going for a party with about 1/12 of the seats in the House of Commons. What were people expecting? The Lib Dem manifesto delivered in full?

You keep telling yourself that you made a difference. It might help you mask the fact that you facilitated the attacks of some of the most vulnerable in society over the last 5 years. It might help you sleep at night.

[John Lambies Doos]

In which case I'm sorry but you weren't listening.

The front page of our manifesto had four key pledges:

1. Fairer taxes that put money back in your pocket

We raised the personal allowance by *more than* we said we would in our manifesto. This was a policy David Cameron specifically said we couldn't do in the leadership debates.

We also got capital gains tax raised to 28% for higher rate earners, something the Tories opposed, introduced a higher rate of stamp duty on high value homes, part of which included a de facto mansion tax on homes owned by foreign corporate envelopes.

We blocked the Tory proposal to raise the inheritance tax threshold too.

2. A fair chance for every child

This related to our proposal for a £2.5 billion "pupil premium" which would direct government resources at schools in England which take on the most disadvantaged kids. The Tories tried to steal this policy off us in 2009, offering a £1.5 billion scheme, but the coalition delivered this in full.

Specific Lib Dem proposals on shared parental leave and expanding childcare provision for 2 and 3 year olds were also implemented by the Coalition, despite not being Tory policy. Expanding school meals for primary school kids was also secured against the wishes of the Tories.

3. A fair future - creating jobs by making Britain greener

This government has created 2 million apprentices, produced the highest ever level of employment in this country, cut unemployment, and the vast majority of new jobs are full time.

This government set up the Green Investment Bank in Edinburgh, providing seed capital for renewables investment. This is already creating jobs in offshore wind in Scotland.

4. A fair deal - cleaning up or politics

This was an area where some of our policies were held back by other parties. It's not our fault if parties representing about 2/3 of the House of Commons block our reasonable proposals for reform of the House of Lords.

Nonetheless we secured a referendum on voting reform, which *the public* decided it didn't want. We legislated for an EU referendum in the event of a Treaty change, as we promised.

Then some other policies of ours implemented in government or Tory proposals blocked:

1. No like for like replacement of Trident in this Parliament

2. Pensions triple lock guarantee

3. 0.7% GDP on foreign aid guaranteed in law

4. An end to 28 days detention without trial

5. Human Rights Act retained despite Theresa May

6. End to routine child detention at Dungavel and Yarwood.

7. Reform of control orders

8. Ended government retention of fingerprints of children on the ContactPoint database

9. Introduced the carer's bonus of £400 a year

10. Streamlined the state pension, as we said we would

11. Blocked the building of new coal power stations lacking carbon capture technology

12. Secured a public inquiry into torture and extraordinary rendition

13. Blocked Theresa May's Snoopers Charter

14. ID card scheme scrapped

15. Ended forced annuities for pensioners, letting them decide how to spend their own money

16. Introduced the banking levy, that raises more money than the Labor bankers bonus tax

17. Significantly expanded broadband services in rural areas

18. Legislated to extend flexible working rights to all employees

But yeah, apart from that, what did the Lib Dems do for us?

Considering we won only 57 of the 650 seats in Parliament, it's remarkable how much of the Lib Dem manifesto has become part of the government's record. Independent estimates suggest 75% of our manifesto was in the Coalition Agreement and that we got 40% of it implemented in government. That's really not bad going for a party with about 1/12 of the seats in the House of Commons. What were people expecting? The Lib Dem manifesto delivered in full?

Free third level tuition ad lib?

[Ad Lib]

/\ Man who thinks party winning 3% is responsible for the outcome of an election, and gladly lies in order to be 'right'.

Tell us again Ad Lib how Better Together told you Brown was going rogue, oh that's right actually you were lying through your teeth about the whole thing as Osborne announced the vow not Brown. Which you forgot before you made up your fictitious story.

I didn't say Brown announced the Vow! Why do you keep saying this? I said Brown went rogue when he entered the campaign and started talking about Home Rule and federalism. It wasn't pre-cleared by the other parties or his own. The patter about a convention after a No vote was all him and the others couldn't say no without exposing BT's internal shambles.

[Ad Lib]

Free third level tuition ad lib?

1. A stupid policy the leadership correctly tried to get us to ditch in 2009.

2. Not viable politically when Labour supported fees and commissioned the Browne report, which the Tories supported.

3. Couldn't give a monkey's. I never supported the policy or the pledge

4. I joined the party after and partly because they broke the pledge

5. The new system is fairer by:

i) Massively increasing up-front maintenance support for disadvantaged students

ii) Significantly cutting the monthly repayments for low-paid graduates

iii) Reducing the overall contributions for graduates in the bottom 40% of graduate earnings

iv) Increasing significantly the contributions of high earning graduates to the system

All of which help to explain why England has a higher proportion of school leavers from disadvantaged backgrounds going to University than Scotland does.

[John Lambies Doos]

1. A stupid policy the leadership correctly tried to get us to ditch in 2009.

2. Not viable politically when Labour supported fees and commissioned the Browne report, which the Tories supported.

3. Couldn't give a monkey's. I never supported the policy or the pledge

4. I joined the party after and partly because they broke the pledge

5. The new system is fairer by:

i) Massively increasing up-front maintenance support for disadvantaged students

ii) Significantly cutting the monthly repayments for low-paid graduates

iii) Reducing the overall contributions for graduates in the bottom 40% of graduate earnings

iv) Increasing significantly the contributions of high earning graduates to the system

All of which help to explain why England has a higher proportion of school leavers from disadvantaged backgrounds going to University than Scotland does.

Fair enough Ad Lib. But perception is 99% reality. Initial discussion is about Nick Clegg and his leadership going into this election on behalf of lib dems.

Third level tuition fees will be the legacy of him and the lib dems.