Juniors v Lowland League - Comparison

[cmontheloknow]

Grow up.

My response was to a post saying that because the poster was impressed with EK winning v a CD Second division team, in his opinion they would finish top half West Premier.

Well, my opinion on a recent game I saw when they struggled & couldn't beat an amateur team, was they would struggle in the West Premier.

Also seen them play at lowland league game v Dalbeattie when they were poor.

No, it was a serious question. Why would EKFC have a stronger 2nd XI than a 1st XI? I genuinely don't understand the logic of that. The best players should be in their 1st team.

I have already linked to footage of them dismantling Pollok (albeit not the first choice line-up) a few weeks ago which provides a bit of weight to the opinion they're not totally pish.

[LongTimeLurker]

No, it was a serious question. Why would EKFC have a stronger 2nd XI than a 1st XI? I genuinely don't understand the logic of that. The best players should be in their 1st team.

Players don't fancy away trips to Dalbeattie and Innerleithen? Not saying that's the case and find it a bit far-fetched in this particular instance but there are reasons why part-time/amateur players with the ability to do it sometimes give higher status leagues the bodyswerve.

[cmontheloknow]

Players don't fancy away trips to Dalbeattie and Innerleithen? Not saying that's the case and find it a bit far-fetched in this particular instance but there are reasons why part-time/amateur players with the ability to do it sometimes give higher status leagues the bodyswerve.

Yeah fair enough elsewhere and at a bigger amateur side - but in the same team? It's not as if EK is short of amateur teams at a reasonable level. IMO a football club should run for the benefit of the 1st XI. Obviously there are difficulties with registrations and afaik you can't easily switch from amateur to Lowland etc but that brings me back to the original point - if they can't use these players in the 1st XI, what is the point of the team? How does it benefit football in EK to have a Lowland League side with a pseudo 2nd string in the SAFL? On top of that you have East Kilbride Amateurs in the Central Scottish, EK YM with 3 teams across various leagues and EKRR with 2 teams in SAFL and the Greater Glasgow League. Just seems excessive and the EKFC amateur team - if they're as good as is being made out - just seems a bit pointless.

[S.Irvine]

Yeah fair enough elsewhere and at a bigger amateur side - but in the same team? It's not as if EK is short of amateur teams at a reasonable level. IMO a football club should run for the benefit of the 1st XI. Obviously there are difficulties with registrations and afaik you can't easily switch from amateur to Lowland etc but that brings me back to the original point - if they can't use these players in the 1st XI, what is the point of the team? How does it benefit football in EK to have a Lowland League side with a pseudo 2nd string in the SAFL? On top of that you have East Kilbride Amateurs in the Central Scottish, EK YM with 3 teams across various leagues and EKRR with 2 teams in SAFL and the Greater Glasgow League. Just seems excessive and the EKFC amateur team - if they're as good as is being made out - just seems a bit pointless.

Seems your wanting an argument here for some reason.

Firstly, in my original post, all I mentioned is that they struggled to beat their amateur side, & i"ll say it for the THIRD time for you, IN MY OPINION would struggle in the West Premier, at no stage do I make it out as if the amateurs were world beaters. That seems to be the assumption that you have jumped too. A very good amateur side that have won 3 back to back titles & hopefully another this season & will be in the SAFL top division next season.

Secondly, it's the EK FC U20's that are the clubs reserve side. The amateurs are part of the club, play home games & train at the K-Park, better facilities than most junior clubs n certainly not a shite covered public park as you mentioned in a previous post, but are run as a separate club. When EK FC where formed 2010, they took in clubs that were already in the town to make it a football community club. The amateurs wear the same strip etc, but raise their own funds, sponsors, management team. If EK FC lowlands team want one of the amateur players, they have to approach the amateurs manager like they would if they wanted to sign a player from any other club.

As for players wanting to stay with the amateurs, the boys have been together for nearly 15 years since youth football & are all close pals as well as teammates. Four sets of brothers are involved at the club, and several players have had the chance to move on to the juniors but opted to stay where they enjoy their football with their family & friends. The club also had to deal with the loss of founder/manager Rab McMillan who died at a training session last season which has made the group of players a lot closer & stronger.

Hope this answers your questions. I gave my opinion on how EK FC would do in the juniors based on what I saw of them, not to get into an argument about the merits of the amateur side.

This is after all the Juniors forum.

[cmontheloknow]

Seems your wanting an argument here for some reason.

Firstly, in my original post, all I mentioned is that they struggled to beat their amateur side, & i"ll say it for the THIRD time for you, IN MY OPINION would struggle in the West Premier, at no stage do I make it out as if the amateurs were world beaters. That seems to be the assumption that you have jumped too. A very good amateur side that have won 3 back to back titles & hopefully another this season & will be in the SAFL top division next season.

Secondly, it's the EK FC U20's that are the clubs reserve side. The amateurs are part of the club, play home games & train at the K-Park, better facilities than most junior clubs n certainly not a shite covered public park as you mentioned in a previous post, but are run as a separate club. When EK FC where formed 2010, they took in clubs that were already in the town to make it a football community club. The amateurs wear the same strip etc, but raise their own funds, sponsors, management team. If EK FC lowlands team want one of the amateur players, they have to approach the amateurs manager like they would if they wanted to sign a player from any other club.

As for players wanting to stay with the amateurs, the boys have been together for nearly 15 years since youth football & are all close pals as well as teammates. Four sets of brothers are involved at the club, and several players have had the chance to move on to the juniors but opted to stay where they enjoy their football with their family & friends. The club also had to deal with the loss of founder/manager Rab McMillan who died at a training session last season which has made the group of players a lot closer & stronger.

Hope this answers your questions. I gave my opinion on how EK FC would do in the juniors based on what I saw of them, not to get into an argument about the merits of the amateur side.

This is after all the Juniors forum.

Thanks for the detailed response.

Your original post stated:

Seen EK lowlands team last Wednesday in a friendly versus the EK FC Scottish Amateur League side, & on that game no way would they survive in the West Super Premier. 1-1 draw & the amateurs were the better team first half & the game only changed when amateurs took players off to rest them for their weekend cuptie

which suggests (i) the EK LL side are not good enough based for top level Juniors based on one game and (ii) that the Amateurs were the stronger side. But if the Amateurs are not really linked anyway, then such a result seems a bit irrelevant as there are plenty of decent players in that set-up - I've played against or with lads from Red Star and they've got a number who'd play higher up with the opportunity.

The one-off game from EKFC v Lok would suggest they could easily play at our level or higher. But that shows the weakness of both arguments as I'm sure you'd agree one game isn't enough to make a worthwhile judgement. I hope Lok play against them with a stronger line-up - a second game would add a bit of weight to either argument.

[Loughal]

Talking with my mates we are wondering about a few associated things regarding this thread.

1. Is there any obvious reason why the Juniors never made a foothold in the Borders or the South of Scotland?

2. While Glasgow had enough teams to make up a junior league of its own Edinburgh right up to the present day has had few teams joining the SJFA. Same vein; Dundee, Aberdeen are strong SJFA towns yet there isn't a junior team in Kilmarnock,Paisley Dumfries,Stirling, Coatbridge, Airdrie, Helensburgh and no doubt quite a few others.

There must be some reason for this imbalance. WHY?

[cotter]

The ants always play Edinburgh city,,,for last 6 years,, n a always think city are a vgood standard,,,,,, lost 3_2 this year ,,meaning, it's 4_2 in games to city,, it's always good game as it's for a memorial cup,,,,,,,,,,cheeers Cotter

[HTG]

Talking with my mates we are wondering about a few associated things regarding this thread.

1. Is there any obvious reason why the Juniors never made a foothold in the Borders or the South of Scotland?

2. While Glasgow had enough teams to make up a junior league of its own Edinburgh right up to the present day has had few teams joining the SJFA. Same vein; Dundee, Aberdeen are strong SJFA towns yet there isn't a junior team in Kilmarnock,Paisley Dumfries,Stirling, Coatbridge, Airdrie, Helensburgh and no doubt quite a few others.

There must be some reason for this imbalance. WHY?

No idea in terms of answering your question but the whole ethos of having non league football split into different factions doing much the same things with much the same performance variance is absolutely nuts.

[LongTimeLurker]

...and the sad thing is that the factionalism and collective myopia is still continuing even in the 21st century even when the SFA pretends to be bringing in a pyramid.

[Hillonearth]

The Borders is a strange case – with the exception of Innerleithen it looks like rugby just got there first, with the football clubs (where they even exist – there’s none in the likes of Melrose or Jedburgh) playing very much second fiddle to the local eggchasers.

With the likes of Edinburgh and Galloway it seems like the East and South leagues in a case of convergent evolution took the place that the Juniors fill in the rest of the country as the semi-pro level of football, although when you visit some of the grounds you have to take the “Senior” thing with a pinch of salt…

[HibeeJibee]

As mentioned above, it's simply a series of quirks of history. Some parts of the country - mainly the heavier industrial areas it would seen - trended Junior, some Senior. There was no over-arching design, no plan.

In time a 'settling' has left very few areas directly overlapping, e.g. Midlothian... there were once Junior leagues operating in Edinburgh and the Borders, but they ceased, while the experience in Strathclyde was the reverse.

In a seperate vein there is basically no Amateur football north or west of Aberdeenshire playing in the standard season. Both in terms of playing quality and facilities, many of the North Juniors and North Caledonian clubs would be Amateurs were they located elsewhere in Scotland. But even up north the hierarchy is more clear-cut than in some places.

[patriot1]

No idea in terms of answering your question but the whole ethos of having non league football split into different factions doing much the same things with much the same performance variance is absolutely nuts.

Spot on!!

[patriot1]

...and the sad thing is that the factionalism and collective myopia is still continuing even in the 21st century even when the SFA pretends to be bringing in a pyramid.

Couldn't agree more with the first part of that but as far as I am aware there will be play offs this season so the pyramid is not a pretence.

[HibeeJibee]

You're right in part: a pyramid has been established, and has now incorporated all the Senior league organisations. (Except the North Caledonian - but as it only consists of 6 teams they're almost irrelevant).

However, the Juniors have not joined the pyramid yet, so it isn't a fully comprehensive system in the manner of other countries. Main issues are incorporating the Juniors, and 'merging-in' the East and South of Scotland leagues.

Under all the above sit the Amateurs. (And the Welfarers, but they've only one, 4-team, Saturday standard season league left, so again almost irrelevant). Amateur clubs can, however, apply to join Juniors, EOS, SOS etc. annually.

So the process has been started, but not finished.

For anyone interested, the make-up of Scottish football at the moment is like this according to my figures. It seems Welfare football is almost dead:

Saturday, regular season - 925 teams (last season 916)

* Senior pyramid & NCFL - 111 teams (last season: 110)

* Juniors - 161 teams (last season: 160)

* Amateurs - 649 teams (last season: 643)

* Welfarers - 4 teams (last season: 4)

Amateurs also have Saturday Morning (last season: 107); Churches (last season: 48); and Academic i.e. students/colleges leagues.

Sunday, regular season - 352 teams last season

* Amateurs - 318 teams last season

* Welfarers - 34 teams last season

Amateurs also have a Supporters league (9 teams last season). And a special Police league (8 teams last season) which runs midweek.

Finally we find 203 teams (divided 114 Amateurs and 89 Welfarers) playing spring or summer season football - on all manner of days and formats, often involving only a handful of games - across the north and the islands.

[LongTimeLurker]

If the SFA were serious about a pyramid, the first step would have been to end the practice of having separate affiliated national associations, and getting all clubs and leagues to affiliate directly with the SFA. As the UEFA and FIFA recognised national body it doesn't need to negotiate with its affiliated bodies over anything. It can set the terms.

[HibeeJibee]

I imagine the 'nuclear option' is their last resort, tbh, not the first.

[cowdenbeath]

If the SFA were serious about a pyramid, the first step would have been to end the practice of having separate affiliated national associations, and getting all clubs and leagues to affiliate directly with the SFA. As the UEFA and FIFA recognised national body it doesn't need to negotiate with its affiliated bodies over anything. It can set the terms.

I would have to agree with this.

[HibeeJibee]

It would certainly have made things much simpler, organisationally, and given the SFA more direct control.

In practice though, the SFA is a fairly conservative and weak organisation. I don't think their starting-point was ever going to be abolishing SJFA & SAFA.

You'd probably have seen immediate outcry on here, too!!

[LongTimeLurker]

As long as the junior cup continued to be run by an SFA committee and the three regions were still there I question whether most people would even notice that the SJFA was gone. As a national association it does very little. The SFA already does stuff like referee assignments and player registrations.

[WaffenThinMint]

The ants always play Edinburgh city,,,for last 6 years,, n a always think city are a vgood standard,,,,,, lost 3_2 this year ,,meaning, it's 4_2 in games to city,, it's always good game as it's for a memorial cup,,,,,,,,,,cheeers Cotter

HE LIVES!

Phew, was beginning to go cold turkey without my supply of commas.

The Borders is a strange case – with the exception of Innerleithen it looks like rugby just got there first, with the football clubs (where they even exist – there’s none in the likes of Melrose or Jedburgh) playing very much second fiddle to the local eggchasers.

With the likes of Edinburgh and Galloway it seems like the East and South leagues in a case of convergent evolution took the place that the Juniors fill in the rest of the country as the semi-pro level of football, although when you visit some of the grounds you have to take the “Senior” thing with a pinch of salt…

Surprised HJ never responded more to this.

The Borders got rugby because Queen's Park abandoned a projected Borders tour to play in the FA Cup in the early days of footie. Back then they would sometimes have Third Lanark or Vale Of Leven in tow to play exhibition matches along with games against local scratch sides as part of spreading the "good news", and these exhibition tours played a big part in spreading the game all over Scotland.

The rugby lot from Edinburgh's private schools seized the chance to do some hearts & minds stuff of their own (having watched with dismay as most of working & lower middle class Scotland was lost to them & even some of their own clubs - including a certain Vale of Leven and Kilmarnock...), thus was the Borders largely lost to soccer except for Gala Fairydean Rovers and poor old Hawick Royal Albert (yes, founded by a Royal Albert supporter).

The next post will be HJ completely tearing apart the above in a blizzard of facts whereupon I will sit biscuitarsed in a corner drinking that bottle of Innis & Gunn Toasted I discovered today.