Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 This has been mentioned on a couple of threads but it's potential impact means it merits it's own. A quick Google search will tell you what you need to know though the Independent article below offers a decent precis. There is a lack of clarity as to timetables and decisions in various forums, and there is conflicting views about the ability of individual EU members states to veto the proposals. Anything close to the existing format would have serious implications not only for trade but for the democratic process. I can't see it disappearing and even a watered down version will be controversial http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html TTIPs biggest threat to society is its inherent assault on democracy. One of the main aims of TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments policies cause a loss of profits. In effect it means unelected transnational corporations can dictate the policies of democratically elected governments. ISDSs are already in place in other bi-lateral trade agreements around the world and have led to such injustices as in Germany where Swedish energy company Vattenfall is suing the German government for billions of dollars over its decision to phase out nuclear power plants in the wake of the Fukushima disaster in Japan. Here we see a public health policy put into place by a democratically elected government being threatened by an energy giant because of a potential loss of profit. Nothing could be more cynically anti-democratic. Apologies for formatting, doing this on my phone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 I could be wrong, and may have picked this up wrong, but my Mrs said to me the other day that the US Senate has blocked TTIP. Is this right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Looking forward to TTIP abolishing democracy and privatising the NHS tbqhwym8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suspect Device Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The more I read about it, the more worried I am about it. It looks like one of the most important and damaging political and economic 'projects' ever yet it gets very little coverage in the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTChris Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The TTIP treaty doesn't introduce ISDS. In the last forty years the UK has signed nearly 100 treaties that include provision for ISDS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 The TTIP treaty doesn't introduce ISDS. In the last forty years the UK has signed nearly 100 treaties that include provision for ISDS. It may not introduce it but concerns have been raised that it will be used more extensively and more aggressively under TTIP. I'd rather not be thinking in 3 or 4 years time 'shit, we should have taken this more seriously'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 This has been mentioned on a couple of threads but it's potential impact means it merits it's own. A quick Google search will tell you what you need to know though the Independent article below offers a decent precis. There is a lack of clarity as to timetables and decisions in various forums, and there is conflicting views about the ability of individual EU members states to veto the proposals. Anything close to the existing format would have serious implications not only for trade but for the democratic process. I can't see it disappearing and even a watered down version will be controversial http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html TTIPs biggest threat to society is its inherent assault on democracy. One of the main aims of TTIP is the introduction of Investor-State Dispute Settlements (ISDS), which allow companies to sue governments if those governments policies cause a loss of profits. In effect it means unelected transnational corporations can dictate the policies of democratically elected governments. ISDSs are already in place in other bi-lateral trade agreements around the world and have led to such injustices as in Germany where Swedish energy company Vattenfall is suing the German government for billions of dollars over its decision to phase out nuclear power plants in the wake of the Fukushima disaster in Japan. Here we see a public health policy put into place by a democratically elected government being threatened by an energy giant because of a potential loss of profit. Nothing could be more cynically anti-democratic. Apologies for formatting, doing this on my phone. Vattenfall is wholly owned by the democratically elected Swedish Government, and it's normal if a Government breaks a commercial contract it will have to pay compensation. Similarly if a Government signs a treaty and then breaks it there will be consequences, always have been, as with the WTO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Vattenfall is wholly owned by the democratically elected Swedish Government, and it's normal if a Government breaks a commercial contract it will have to pay compensation. Are they breaking a commercial contract? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Are they breaking a commercial contract? Yes. It would be like the UK Government signing a contract allowing Virgin Rail to operate the West Coast line for 30 years and cancelling it after 5 years of intensive long term capital investment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Yes. It would be like the UK Government signing a contract allowing Virgin Rail to operate the West Coast line for 30 years and cancelling it after 5 years of intensive long term capital investment. A link to the details would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 A link to the details would be appreciated. Not too many details but this gives a outline: http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/swedish-energy-giant-vattenfall-nets-billions-for-nuclear-phaseout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 Not too many details but this gives a outline: http://spectrum.ieee.org/energywise/energy/nuclear/swedish-energy-giant-vattenfall-nets-billions-for-nuclear-phaseout Seems pretty reasonable and does not appear to be a good exams of ISDS for the Independent to have cited in their article. As I understand it ISDS as being discussed under TTIP goes further than this; again there is a lack of clarity. But if it is just a continuation of companies being allowed to sue governments in relation to existing commercial contracts I don't think it would have attracted as much controversy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 TTIP is, quite simply, the end result of politicians bowing down to business interests. Any doubt that the so-called democratic leaders of the "free" world are anything but shills for commercial concerns disappears with any progress on this scheme. Privatisation of the NHS, schools, prisons, security services.... Welcome to the endgame of Capitalism, boys and girls. Funny how we didn't see much of this in the election campaigns, don't you think? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 TTIP is, quite simply, the end result of politicians bowing down to business interests. Any doubt that the so-called democratic leaders of the "free" world are anything but shills for commercial concerns disappears with any progress on this scheme. Privatisation of the NHS, schools, prisons, security services.... Welcome to the endgame of Capitalism, boys and girls. Funny how we didn't see much of this in the election campaigns, don't you think? Yip, essential public services not being run in a way that best serves society but in a way that offers greatest reward to the profiteers and their political allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 Seems pretty reasonable and does not appear to be a good exams of ISDS for the Independent to have cited in their article. As I understand it ISDS as being discussed under TTIP goes further than this; again there is a lack of clarity. But if it is just a continuation of companies being allowed to sue governments in relation to existing commercial contracts I don't think it would have attracted as much controversy. I'm sure there are lots of areas to be worried about in TTIP, and areas we should welcome. The thing that annoys me is the way people like 38 degrees take a tiny part of a draft document and extrapolate to the nth degree of worst possible scenario. There is no way, for example, that either Europe or the US would give up it's right to set minimum wages. There are reasons why the SNP, Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories all support the negotiations. Companies who have gone through all the testing procedures for developing a product for the European market would no longer have to do the same again to satisfy the US regulatory authorities, saving a huge amount of time and money, for example, which could greatly benefit Scottish exporters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fotbawmad Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 There is a reason why stuff like this is drafted up under great secrecy and then fast tracked, because they know if you knew what was in there you'd be against it. I remember a couple years ago when Obama evoked "national security" when the TPP was being drafted. Despite the fact people with no form of security clearance had access to it. It wasn't until it found it's way to Wikileaks that people learned why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 I'm sure there are lots of areas to be worried about in TTIP, and areas we should welcome. The thing that annoys me is the way people like 38 degrees take a tiny part of a draft document and extrapolate to the nth degree of worst possible scenario. There is no way, for example, that either Europe or the US would give up it's right to set minimum wages. There are reasons why the SNP, Labour, Lib Dems and the Tories all support the negotiations. Companies who have gone through all the testing procedures for developing a product for the European market would no longer have to do the same again to satisfy the US regulatory authorities, saving a huge amount of time and money, for example, which could greatly benefit Scottish exporters. Why is it being done under a cloak of secrecy then? As to the SNP's position, given they are excluded from the negotiations and are also, therefore, largely in the dark, they seem to be rightly cautious: http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/snp-candidate-ttip-deal-an-attack-on-democracy-1-3731921 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boabinoban Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The fact that there is no information for the public whatsoever means that TTIP will not be a good thing. I think that's pretty obvious. The fact that no one seems to be against it is really worrying. Like WhiteRoseKillie says: "Welcome to the endgame of Capitalism". So after everything is sold off, where do we go from here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted May 21, 2015 Author Share Posted May 21, 2015 The fact that there is no information for the public whatsoever means that TTIP will not be a good thing. I think that's pretty obvious. The fact that no one seems to be against it is really worrying. Like WhiteRoseKillie says: "Welcome to the endgame of Capitalism". So after everything is sold off, where do we go from here? In fairness I wouldn't say that no one is against it; many individuals and organisations have expressed concern. What I've failed to verify is the ratification/veto options for member states. If this goes before the Westminster Parliament there would need to be a full debate. If some of the provisions are as is being suggested then I think there would be huge opposition. I can't see all the other EU countries just falling into line either. One thing is certain, the more public debate we have about this at the earliest time the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshbairn Posted May 21, 2015 Share Posted May 21, 2015 The fact that there is no information for the public whatsoever means that TTIP will not be a good thing. I think that's pretty obvious. The fact that no one seems to be against it is really worrying. Like WhiteRoseKillie says: "Welcome to the endgame of Capitalism". So after everything is sold off, where do we go from here? There's shed loads of information, it's just that most of it is incredibly boring: http://trade.ec.europa.eu/doclib/press/index.cfm?id=1230 P.S. Here's a summary from the British Chamber of Commerce: http://exportbritain.org.uk/media/downloads/TTIP%20Factsheet.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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