Ad Lib Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 No, said person earns just over £100 p.m. at NMW. You are displaying Reynard-esque levels of economic stupidity here. Income (or lack thereof) does not make you poor. If they're saving all of it, surely that means they either own their house, are receiving digs for free from a place owned by someone else, or are living with family? Also, if they're saving it all, it suggests that they're a dependent, and that scenario 3 is what is happening, or that they are in receipt of various other welfare entitlements, because of low income, and are particularly thrifty with what they do earn. Only one of those scenarios leads to a house where income is below the threshold and capital is below the threshold, and it's the middle one, which though my own living situation is highly irregular. I doubt that many people in that situation actually claim council tax relief, though it would be interesting if you could provide us with the figures showing the break-down of those who claim it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I'm bookmarking that name. Love it. If for no other reason than I'm not Honourable and not from East Renfrewshire. But you ARE a loser, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 But you ARE a loser, right? When I look back on my life, I'll probably view this as a win, to be honest: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 If they're saving all of it, surely that means they either own their house, are receiving digs for free from a place owned by someone else, or are living with family? Also, if they're saving it all, it suggests that they're a dependent, and that scenario 3 is what is happening, or that they are in receipt of various other welfare entitlements, because of low income, and are particularly thrifty with what they do earn. Only one of those scenarios leads to a house where income is below the threshold and capital is below the threshold, and it's the middle one, which though my own living situation is highly irregular. I doubt that many people in that situation actually claim council tax relief, though it would be interesting if you could provide us with the figures showing the break-down of those who claim it. Ehm, you are going a bit off track here. The claim made by H_B was Are you seriously trying to distance income from a definition of "poorest"? So, I was answering that specific question by providing an example of someone that has a very low income but yet manages to save 100% of it and therefore could not claim to be poor. Are you claiming otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 So, I was answering that specific question by providing an example of someone that has a very low income but yet manages to save 100% of it and therefore could not claim to be poor. Are you claiming otherwise? Uh huh. Are you disputing that the poorest in society pay £0 Council Tax. Yes or No? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Are you claiming otherwise? What? I am "claiming" that the poorest in society are those who pay £0 Council Tax. Those who are penalised by the SNP's gift to the Morningside Mansion holders. You cannot be eligible to CTR unless you are one of the poorest in society. Which part of this are you finding difficult about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Ehm, you are going a bit off track here. The claim made by H_B was So, I was answering that specific question by providing an example of someone that has a very low income but yet manages to save 100% of it and therefore could not claim to be poor. Are you claiming otherwise? In the context of council tax reductions, the overwhelming majority of those on low income and low on capital, who are therefore eligible for it, are poor. Pointing to individuals who are on low incomes who are not poor is an attempt to distance income from poverty, especially when their living situations are hugely atypical of those on low incomes. In fact, the definitions that are used for poverty by the ONS and by extension most charities and public bodies, are derivatives of, yep, you guessed it, household income. Absolute and relative poverty are fixed proportions of the median income at various points in time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 When I look back on my life, I'll probably view this as a win, to be honest: Your Carrick as Scottish political history was being made was a thing of deft beauty, teebs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 In the context of council tax reductions, the overwhelming majority of those on low income and low on capital, who are therefore eligible for it, are poor. Pointing to individuals who are on low incomes who are not poor is an attempt to distance income from poverty, especially when their living situations are hugely atypical of those on low incomes. In fact, the definitions that are used for poverty by the ONS and by extension most charities and public bodies, are derivatives of, yep, you guessed it, household income. Absolute and relative poverty are fixed proportions of the median income at various points in time. In true P & B fashion this is a word salad. Your attempt to re-phrase this to rescue a fellow law squad member whilst admirable is not succeeding. Is being poor the same as having a low income? No need to write a thesis on it when a one word answer will suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 What? I am "claiming" that the poorest in society are those who pay £0 Council Tax. Those who are penalised by the SNP's gift to the Morningside Mansion holders. You cannot be eligible to CTR unless you are one of the poorest in society. Which part of this are you finding difficult about this? Speak when spoken to. The post was to ad-lib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fide Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Speak when spoken to. The post was to ad-lib. :lol: Telt! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I'm Brian Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Perhaps everyone who has strong views on local government taxation can direct their tuppence worth here. You've still got a fortnight to make a submission, or complete a questionnaire. Whichever takes your fancy. http://localtaxcommission.scot/commission-seeks-views-on-the-future-of-local-taxation/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Speak when spoken to. The post was to ad-lib. Yes, I can see why you wish to slither out of the complete disaster you have made of this thread. How about you answer the questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
H_B Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Is being poor the same as having a low income? No. Having no or Low Income with minimal or no savings is being poor. Which is, conveniently enough, the criteria for CTR. We pay CTR to the poorest in society. The same people the SNP are happy to watch suffer poorer services, whilst they vote grab the well off vote by redistributing hundreds of millions into their pockets. Progressive! You cannot claim CTR if you are not one of the poorest in society. If you pay £0 CT the CT freeze does absolutely nothing good for you, and in fact means the services locally you often rely on are cut back so than Manus Morningside can have that new tennis racquet. Again, exactly which part of the SG redistributing hundreds of millions of pounds to weathy Scots rather than using it to tackle poverty, and this being a gift to the middle class as a vote grab are you having difficulty with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thumper Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 There might be some slight technical flaw in HB's newfound characterisation of Morningside as being some sort of hive of SNP tribalism to which the party are sworn to enrich. Can't quite put my finger on it though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeTillEhDeh Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 It may not be a sop to the middle classes but it is those on middle class incomes and above who have benefitted. I think it has been a populist policy with those who have benefited least not realising the full implication. Couldn't have put it better myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 In much the same way as the SNP claim all the credit for forcing Westminster's hand on devolution but distance themselves from the Smith proposals they themselves signed up to. This is how politics works. I'm bookmarking that name. Love it. If for no other reason than I'm not Honourable and not from East Renfrewshire. I think the vast majority of people on this forum have absolutely no intention whatsoever of voting Liberal Democrat any time soon and how condescendingly I call out their bullshit will have precisely zero bearing on the electoral prospects of any candidate anywhere. It is statically probable that the vast majority of people on this forum had, at one time, absolutely no intention of voting SNP. Look what happened. You can, of course, speak to people however you wish. I wonder if it is in your or your party's best interests to berate rather than educate though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 Yes, I can see why you wish to slither out of the complete disaster you have made of this thread. How about you answer the questions? Is slithering out of threads the same as slitheting away from a forum for months? If so then I understand why you would appear to be qualified to judge others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ira Gaines Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 I see his wee slither away was enough to make people forget that he's not worth engaging with, unless it's pointing and laughing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ad Lib Posted June 8, 2015 Share Posted June 8, 2015 In true P & B fashion this is a word salad. Your attempt to re-phrase this to rescue a fellow law squad member whilst admirable is not succeeding. Is being poor the same as having a low income? No need to write a thesis on it when a one word answer will suffice. No one has said that having low incomes is the same as being poor. All those who are poor are on low incomes. Not all those who are on low incomes are poor. Someone with less than £16k of capital who is on low income is almost certainly poor. You're the one on the failboat trying to suggest that council tax reductions don't overwhelmingly benefit the poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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