WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 If it privatisation wasn't better value for money then surely no government would even risk propose it. No matter how bad you think the Tories are, creating a worse NHS with poorer pay would surely see them spend decades out of government Well it hasn't so far, has it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinMagyar Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 If it privatisation wasn't better value for money then surely no government would even risk propose it. No matter how bad you think the Tories are, creating a worse NHS with poorer pay would surely see them spend decades out of government Which is why they have been doing it piecemeal since the sixties! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 3 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said: If it privatisation wasn't better value for money then surely no government would even risk propose it. No matter how bad you think the Tories are, creating a worse NHS with poorer pay would surely see them spend decades out of government That would be true if we didn't have friends and family benefiting massively from some of the Tory policies. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Well it hasn't so far, has it? That's because an ultra small percentage has been. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 4 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said: If it privatisation wasn't better value for money then surely no government would even risk propose it. No matter how bad you think the Tories are, creating a worse NHS with poorer pay would surely see them spend decades out of government Not so sure, the railways are awful and apparently eating up more tax money than when they were under national control. Certainly, the PFI schools and hospitals in Scotland are equally awful. Let's keep the important stuff - education, health, utilities and public transport under the control of those who paid for it all in the first place. Private enterprise is fine elsewhere. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 That would be true if we didn't have friends and family benefiting massively from some of the Tory policies. This is the reason. Back-handers and second and third jobs on the boards of healthcare firms. Corruption incorporated. The idea that it can be done more efficiently without shafting people is simply bogus. And the people getting shafted would be the same people as always; namely the most vulnerable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I cannot get my head around the fact people believe a Tory government would shaft enough people to cause a certain, catastrophic election defeat, just to please a few fat cat friends 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said: I cannot get my head around the fact people believe a Tory government would shaft enough people to cause a certain, catastrophic election defeat, just to please a few fat cat friends Bit by bit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Bit by bit. If it was a dreadful policy, there would come a point people said 'enough is enough' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DublinMagyar Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 I cannot get my head around the fact people believe a Tory government would shaft enough people to cause a certain, catastrophic election defeat, just to please a few fat cat friends You're quite right, they'd never be bold enough to announce wholesale privatisation but they are doing it via the backdoor, slowly and surely with whatever they can get away with at the time. Whilst painting themselves as the saviors of the system they are fucking up the bum sex. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayrmad Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Just now, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said: If it was a dreadful policy, there would come a point people said 'enough is enough' They will, when it's too late. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 They will, when it's too late. Surely the new government, presuably Labour, would then Nationalise it again?I have no idea if privatisation would be better but get the feeling people are against it because they just are, rather than any rational reason.My views on various issues swing from right wing to left wing and would welcome any solution to a problem 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Am Featha *****h Nan Clach said: Surely the new government, presuably Labour, would then Nationalise it again? I have no idea if privatisation would be better but get the feeling people are against it because they just are, rather than any rational reason. My views on various issues swing from right wing to left wing and would welcome any solution to a problem Privatisation of any public service, NHS, utilities etc....is selling something that you and I have a stake in, that we and our ancestors funded the building of, to the private sector. It is a straight transfer of public assets into private hands and very often not for the correct value. See the Royal Mail for an example. It serves to make the rich very much richer. There is also the tried and tested method of defunding, making it - or a part of it - not work very well and presenting privatisation as the answer. Who can argue, quite clearly something has to be done. People like answers and they like "something being done!". Privatisation can efficiently provide profit but be very inefficient for the public it is supposed to serve. A rail service, for example, that is not used very much will be run down and the station might end up closed. Because it is un-profitable. So the bottom line for the corporation will improve but the local economy of a far flung village will suffer. Privatisation of education becomes beholden to the sponsors and the institutions are pushed to teach what the investors want teached. This has happened widely in the USA where on campuses it was at one point tech companies, and R&D used its resources here, now it is pharmaceuticals - because that's where the huge profits are. The problem with privatisation is simply the need for profit and the demands for more and more profit for a very small, in proportionate terms, number of people. The customer base suffers and these utilities and services are supposed to be for everyone. Edited May 25, 2017 by Shades75 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Am Featha Taigh Nan Clach Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Thanks for that.I cannot believe a completely private or completely state run operation to be the be the best solution. Do you not feel a mixture, dependent on needs and requirements of individual sectors may be the best bet? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pandarilla Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Thanks for that.I cannot believe a completely private or completely state run operation to be the be the best solution. Do you not feel a mixture, dependent on needs and requirements of individual sectors may be the best bet? When there's a mix then the private companies take the profitable bits, and leave the rest. (See the post office for a good example of this).Profit should never, ever come into decisions over folk's healthcare. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 When there's a mix then the private companies take the profitable bits, and leave the rest. (See the post office for a good example of this).Profit should never, ever come into decisions over folk's healthcare. It is, quite simply, immoral to profit from others' misfortune. Be it prisons, hospitals, hospital car parks, or any service which society needs to function- like the forensics services, profit should never, ever, be the driving force. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 A couple of points The NHS as it stands is in a dominant position when it comes to purchasing medical supplies and has large economies of scale Privatisation would either mean breaking it up into smaller units that could be played off against each other by suppliers or having one giant private monopoly driven by profit and facing no serious problem competition. The former can't deliver a better service the latter had no reason too. Secondly it should be relatively in controversial to assert that the big Thatcherite wave of privatisations started with the best ideas and finished with the worst. Some will say the went from great ideas to good ones or from bad ones to terrible ones but it's hard to suggest that British Aerospace was a worse idea than the textbook natural monopoly that is the water industry.There may well be gains to be made from buying Laundry services from outside but similar logic will apply to the piecemeal privatisation of the NHS. By now all the best (or least bad) ideas will be used up and the next ones will be just alright (or awful). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shades75 Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 (edited) 22 minutes ago, WhiteRoseKillie said: It is, quite simply, immoral to profit from others' misfortune. Be it prisons, hospitals, hospital car parks, or any service which society needs to function- like the forensics services, profit should never, ever, be the driving force. On this topic, the privatisation of prisons in the USA is quite one of the most open, and somehow legal examples of corruption of goods markets, profitisation and incentivisation of putting people in jail and a widespread program of human rights abuse. It is a re-imagining of the slave trade. Edited May 25, 2017 by Shades75 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteRoseKillie Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 On this topic, the privatisation of prisons in the USA is quite one of the most open, and somehow legal examples of corruption of goods markets, profitisation and incentivisation of putting people in jail and a widespread program of human rights abuse. It is a re-imagining of the slave trade. You're not wrong. I recommend watching "The House l Live In" - is on Netflix. One of the talking heads describes the system as "another Holocaust", and I thought, "hmm, that's a bit dramatic." Then they put all the ducks in a row, and, well, wow. Fucking horrific. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted May 25, 2017 Share Posted May 25, 2017 Trump getting a taste of his own. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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