Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

39 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

So I remember Robinson saying at the start of the season that he'd need Johnson to work on his fitness so we could get 90 minutes out of him. I appreciate that the jump from the conference to here is quite steep and it's a very high tempo league to be dropped in to so I could forgive him for being out on his feet after 50 minutes in his first month or 2 up here. 

But if you're now into your 8th month here and you still don't have the fitness or sharpness to drop into the team in your brief opportunities it would suggest that it might be a level too far. 

It's difficult not to draw a conclusion from those interviews he did where he was basically saying "if I'm scoring goals then I'm doing my job".

I'd have thought seeing the likes of Scott and even Sammon getting the nod ahead of him on account of the change in shape would mean he's thinking the writing is on the wall. Saturday really seemed like a concerted effort on Robinson's part to give him a run out given we were 3-0 up.

On a slight tangent, given the model means that we're usually looking to move on a couple of bodies for cash in each window to keep things ticking over I'd guess that the fact that, if nothing else, Johnson's got a decent enough goalscoring record (in high profile games too) might mean he'd be on the sellable side of things. I mean if we can offload Bowman for some money to a League 2 side and Heneghan to an actual Championship side then it's presumably not beyond us to punt Johnson to a team who are looking for that type of player.

Also, I seem to recall Robinson suggesting that we're planning on moving away from the non-league market, I wonder if the rumour about Gallagher signing indicates we're aiming to target more established knowns than punts.

Edited March 11, 2019 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Johnson's always looked like he's still struggling to adapt to the pace of the step up, but Saturday was genuinely horrendous. He honestly looked more like a guy plucked from the pub 10 minutes before kick off than a professional football player.

[Swello]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

But if you're now into your 8th month here and you still don't have the fitness or sharpness to drop into the team in your brief opportunities it would suggest that it might be a level too far. 

Moult is the harsh example in this - by the time he was on his way back south, his fitness and all-round game were unrecognisable from the non-league guy that came on in Inverness and looked like he'd be struggling to dislodge Wes Fletcher. He reputedly (and very obviously) put a  fucking ton of work into getting to the point where his fitness allowed his natural ability to come through. Johnson clearly has the natural ability that all good goal scorers have - but you don't get the impression that he's willing/able to push on from where he is. 

[capt_oats]

8 minutes ago, Swello said:

Moult is the harsh example in this - by the time he was on his way back south, his fitness and all-round game were unrecognisable from the non-league guy that came on in Inverness and looked like he'd be struggling to dislodge Wes Fletcher. He reputedly (and very obviously) put a  fucking ton of work into getting to the point where his fitness allowed his natural ability to come through. Johnson clearly has the natural ability that all good goal scorers have - but you don't get the impression that he's willing/able to push on from where he is. 

Incidentally Div Turnbull is now joint top goalscorer with Johnson. 8 goals in 21 appearances vs 8 in 26 for Johnson (and 2 of those were in the LC).

At the rate they're going there's surely a decent chance of both Turnbull and Hastie getting double figures each for the season.

[Desp]

Probably missing someone really obvious, but when was the last time we had a midfielder who scored double figures in a season? 

[well fan for life]

Moult is the harsh example in this - by the time he was on his way back south, his fitness and all-round game were unrecognisable from the non-league guy that came on in Inverness and looked like he'd be struggling to dislodge Wes Fletcher. He reputedly (and very obviously) put a  fucking ton of work into getting to the point where his fitness allowed his natural ability to come through. Johnson clearly has the natural ability that all good goal scorers have - but you don't get the impression that he's willing/able to push on from where he is. 

I won’t lie I thought Moult looked like a weak player who’d be chewed up and spat out of this league in a season when he turned up. But like you say he clearly noted that he needed to put in the work in order to force his way in to the game. The Moult that left us was unrecognisable from the one that turned up.

Johnson almost looks like he’s going the opposite way. As if not being in the team is making him just completely down tools.

But we did manage to get actual money for Ryan Bowman so tbh I don’t understand football transfers.

[dezz]

Probably missing someone really obvious, but when was the last time we had a midfielder who scored double figures in a season? 

Without actually checking any stats, my guess would be Nicky Law. I reckon Ainsworth probably did it one season too if we’re counting wingers.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

29 minutes ago, dezz said:

 

Without actually checking any stats, my guess would be Nicky Law. I reckon Ainsworth probably did it one season too if we’re counting wingers.

Nicky Law never scored 10 goals in a season. No chance.

Ainsworth hit 10 one year. Definitely a midfielder since we would have been playing with 2 strikers in almost his games.

Before that Ritchie Foran in 05/06 played left mid all that season with 2 of McDonald, Clarkson and Hamilton starting up front.

[dezz]

Nicky Law never scored 10 goals in a season. No chance.
Ainsworth hit 10 one year. Definitely a midfielder since we would have been playing with 2 strikers in almost his games.
Before that Ritchie Foran in 05/06 played left mid all that season with 2 of McDonald, Clarkson and Hamilton starting up front.

Yea, you’re right. The most Law got in a season seems to be 7.

[Ron Aldo]

I had a look back through the last few seasons on Wiki.

The most Nicky Law scored in a season was 7 which I was quite surprised by. I always just assumed he'd have scored more.

Lionel got 10 the last time we finished 2nd. Ross Forbes managed 9 in 2009/10 but I see to recall most of them being penalties / early on in the season when we were playing diddies in Europe.

I was surprised that no midfielders came close during Mcghee's first season in charge. Even more surprised that, according to Wiki, Paul Quinn was our top scorer that year after the obvious Clarkson, Porter and Mccormack.

Richie Foran got 14 in 2006/07 but I always thought of him as a striker rather than a midfielder. I could be wrong though - if he was playing midfield that season then that's an even more impressive goal tally given Malpas was in charge and we were rank rotten.

Thats as far back as I went before getting bored and concluding Turnbull is better than every midfielder we've ever had, combined.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

Foran barely played for us as a striker. He made some decent sub appearances up fron in his first few games then played on the left of a midfield 4 for the rest of his time at the club.

04/05 He came into the side replacing an injured Jim Paterson at left mid.  Once Paterson was fit he did have a few games up front. Scored 9

05/06 Paterson was out for most of that season so Foran was almost exlusively the left midfielder, scored 11.

06/07 Foran is 1st choice for left mid and Paterson is primarily a left back after Hammell left. Foran left in January but still got 14 goals.

 

 

[Swami]

5 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Johnson's always looked like he's still struggling to adapt to the pace of the step up, but Saturday was genuinely horrendous. He honestly looked more like a guy plucked from the pub 10 minutes before kick off than a professional football player.

Danny Johnson must have about 25 or so Motherwell appearances by now and I don’t think I’ve ever seen him actually lift his head when he gets the ball. He runs in a straight line when he gets it and has no idea what to do afterwards. He’s one of those weird players that I took a bit of a dislike to immediately, even when he was scoring a couple and I couldn’t really explain why. To be fair, another was Rodriguez-Gorrin, so there’s a high chance that I have no idea what I’m talking about. 

[well fan for life]

13 minutes ago, Swami said:

Danny Johnson must have about 25 or so Motherwell appearances by now and I don’t think I’ve ever seen him actually lift his head when he gets the ball. He runs in a straight line when he gets it and has no idea what to do afterwards. He’s one of those weird players that I took a bit of a dislike to immediately, even when he was scoring a couple and I couldn’t really explain why. To be fair, another was Rodriguez-Gorrin, so there’s a high chance that I have no idea what I’m talking about. 

Even that goal against Aberdeen was exactly this!

He picked the ball up and just got his head down and started running like he was in Sensible Soccer. Obviously not all players have been fitted with Turnbull's radar but at least looking up occasionally for a team mate would be a start.

[Al B]

8 hours ago, Swami said:

He’s one of those weird players that I took a bit of a dislike to immediately.

I was like that with Scott McDonald, both times. I still can't stand him. Not to say I don't recognise what qualities he has on the pitch, but he absolutely boils my piss and always has.

[crazylegsjoe]

It's getting harder to define where being a midfielder stops and being a striker begins these days.

Ainsworth scored 11 goals in 2013/14, so he's probably the last midfielder to hit double figures. In Murphy's final half season, he hit double figures and played either on the left wing or as a number 10, don't think he played as a striker once that season.

In terms of central midfielders, I don't think since I started going to games, we've ever had one to hit double figures. To my mind, the closest was Stephen Pearson with nine goals in 2015/16.

Edited March 12, 2019 by crazylegsjoe

[Desp]

17 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe said:

It's getting harder to define where being a midfielder stops and being a striker begins these days.

 

Aye, that's a good point.  To be honest, I was thinking more along the lines of a central midfielder like Turnbull, so in that respect, Pearson would be the closest comparison. 

Foran definitely played wide left in a midfield four, but I assume a fair chunk of his goals would have been penalties. 

[Casagolda]

20 hours ago, Swello said:

If Robinson plans to keep the current system as his favourite going into next season - hard to see where Johnson fits into that...

Agreed.

I guess the problem is, if you look back at even our best strikers in recent years- Moult, Sutton, Higdon etc. They’ve all toiled when asked to play up front on their own. It’s undoubtedly a very tough shift, which is why I’m loathed to join in the Main bashing that sometimes goes on. 

Given he’ll probably want a new centre forward, along with needing 2 new wide men, you wonder if Robinson can actually afford to bring in the quality to make this system work again next season. 

There’s no doubt we’ve lucked out somewhat this year with the emergence of Hastie- him and Turnbull have scored 11 of our 14 goals so far in 2019 between them. Trying to replace him, Ariyibi and bring in an upgrade in Main all in one summer will be arduous task. 

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Casagolda said:

Agreed.

I guess the problem is, if you look back at even our best strikers in recent years- Moult, Sutton, Higdon etc. They’ve all toiled when asked to play up front on their own. It’s undoubtedly a very tough shift, which is why I’m loathed to join in the Main bashing that sometimes goes on. 

Given he’ll probably want a new centre forward, along with needing 2 new wide men, you wonder if Robinson can actually afford to bring in the quality to make this system work again next season. 

There’s no doubt we’ve lucked out somewhat this year with the emergence of Hastie- him and Turnbull have scored 11 of our 14 goals so far in 2019 between them. Trying to replace him, Ariyibi and bring in an upgrade in Main all in one summer will be arduous task. 

I suppose this is why the "pathway review" the club has been undertaking is actually pretty important as it'll come down to the question of which (if any) of the Reserves are we going to be able to use to supplement the first team and also the positions they play in will presumably inform our approach to recruitment.

Doing a quick search on this thread the first mentions of Turnbull and Hastie came in 2016 when they were 16 and 17. I know there's an argument along the lines of "they should have been in the first team sooner" but really when you look at the impact both are making I'd say that's evidence that the club have got their development spot on. 

Having said that it's almost 3 years between them appearing on the fringes to establishing themselves as first team players and the seasons that they've actually established themselves are in the last years of the extended deals they signed back in December 2016 & January 2017 respectively.

I thought it was interesting that Robinson kind of echoed @thisGRAEME's post from the other day when he was interviewed and was fairly non-committal in saying that there's no guarantee that we'll have the same shape next season. It's something to aim for but it really depends on who we're able to bring in and what suits them. That seems to suggest that this season has been a learning curve for Robinson in so much as going like for like in recruitment can leave you hamstrung so hopefully that will mean that our recruitment won't just be based on the idea of sticking solely to what's working this season.

Presumably if we don't have the quality in the Reserves to replace the players that move on then we're either looking at loans or lucking out in being able to get genuine quality on a free which is definitely a big ask and you're really relying on the right sort of player being available.

Robinson's already hung his hat on Liam Brown when he said he'd pulled a loan for him and instead wanted to try and get him in the first team in the coming months. He's not a wide player, he's a very good CM in the Campbell mould. However that probably has a knock on effect if we're establishing Grimshaw as a right back and Tait as our first choice LB.

I'm genuinely curious how the apparent shift in focus to the Reserves to supplement the squad informs the type of players we're aiming to recruit.

[AndyRoss]

Thought Richard Tait would have stood a decent chance of a place in the Scotland squad.

Model of consistency for us for some time. 

 

[thisGRAEME]

11 minutes ago, AndyRoss said:

Thought Richard Tait would have stood a decent chance of a place in the Scotland squad.

Model of consistency for us for some time. 

TBF, think his versatility v much plays against him here. If he had been playing right back throughout the past six weeks, you could probably have made a good argument for it, as the alternatives are O'Donnell () and whoever Liam Palmer is. 

Tierney and Robertson, not so much.